Questions From Trauma T Feel Manipulative

[DogwoodTree]

I think that she is noticing that you are having some resistance and hesitation and instead of helping you work through those resistences and hesitations to feel safe in the room to be able to do trauma work with her --
she is instead sort of putting it all on you to simply be ready to drive into deep trauma work very very quickly into a pretty new relationship.

This is a lot to think about. Is it even appropriate for me to consider how I might be contributing to a downward spiral? Isn't that her job?

As for the relationship, because of the Asperger's, I'm not even sure the kind of warm, connected relationship you're "supposed" to have is possible for me. I think I'm probably the one pushing to just get on with EMDR without having a relationship first because I don't expect to have a relationship at all. However, I recognize familiarity is important, and being able to predict each other's responses to situations. Her comments yesterday completely caught me by surprise. This was not what I expected from her and I had absolutely no idea how to respond.

Would it be an option for you to have a meeting with both her and your regular T together?

I don't know. I think I would feel too intimidated to be able to contribute to the conversation. I tried equine therapy for about 6 months where my regular T would meet me at the barn along with the equine T and the horse person...so a team of three meeting with me. It took me w-e-e-k-s to be able to say much of anything with all three of them there, and I never got comfortable with the arrangement.

 

[DogwoodTree]

I think you have the negative belief about yourself: "There is something wrong with me".

Yes, true. I put it to work for me by rarely walking away from a tough situation, always looking for how I can adapt or learn or grow in order to fix the problem. I feel like this, then, becomes a core strength, and the T yesterday was oblivious to that. So I guess I felt unseen and misunderstood.

 

[DogwoodTree]

Reflecting back some more on what y'all have said...

In this part, it sounds as if she is trying to use her expertise to dominate.

Yeah, my regular T would never give this kind of feedback like this. If he did feel the need to reflect back a questionable attitude towards something, he would do it very softly, more as a question than a statement, and qualified with something like, "Do you think you might be holding back...?" or something like that. Maybe my expectations have gotten too high from working with him and I need to toughen up.

Part of having aspergers mean focusing on small details and struggling with the big picture, seeing the trees and missing the forest. I wonder if perhaps that is going on here. I am not blaming you at all - I don't have aspergers but when I get triggered, I focus on that trigger like it's the whole picture.

Okay, yes, I realize this happens with me. Maybe she thought I was rejecting EMDR as a whole simply because I questioned the way it was described a few times in the book. I was focused on the detail: I don't want re-imagining to be part of my process. She was focused on the big picture: my refusal on this part means I'm not willing to try EMDR.

Was it bad to not have been inspired by any part of the book? Should I have been looking for ways to, I don't know, generate hope and inspiration from some of it as proof that I'm applying myself to the process? That wasn't the response I had to it. I was honest with her when she asked what I thought about the book. Her response was to tell me that the other books I had read were out of date and so I didn't know what I was talking about. Not getting emotionally engaged with a book that I didn't choose for myself is not unusual for an aspie (probably not for other people, either).

I'm wondering if maybe she doesn't have enough insight into how Asperger's affects people's thinking and communication styles. But to find a decent trauma therapist who does...not sure that's possible around here.

I was able to jump into the history very quickly BUT I wasn't able to jump into the relationship. Trust took time.

I can give my history very quickly...that's not an issue of trust for me. An aspie quirk: I can share my whole life story with a stranger if they seem interested. Trust is built as a person is more predictable and consistent, and as they prove that their points are built on fact not imagination or emotions. And trust refers more to a person's reliability than to warm feelings or comfort.

Maybe that's why this hit me so hard--I didn't see it coming, and she was asserting interpretations of my motives that don't ring true for me. I know I have blind spots, just like everyone else. So I keep going over the conversation...what might she have seen about me that I don't see? But she didn't support her statements with facts, just her opinion that targeted characteristics about myself that I highly value. I'm trying hard not to flip that switch that completely and forever shuts her out as a viable source of truth and insight.

 

[scout86]

I haven't taken the time to read all the responses. Actually, that bothered me to the extent that it's going to be hard to make myself read the rest of the responses, but I will. My OWN response in that situation would have been "What the heck was THAT?'" It would have upset me greatly and I'd be wondering what I'd done wrong and if I should bother going back. And probably "what's going to happen next?", now that I think about it.

What I read of the other responses was pretty different from that, so maybe that's just me. I'd definitely talk it over with your regular T. Maybe he can make sense of it.

The word "manipulative" is one of those words I tend to avoid because it can mean different things to different people and it's not worth the trouble. She came across as as.......sort of threatening? Which it probably wasn't, but it wasn't the kind of thing that would leave me wanting to come back. It sounded to me like she thought you weren't serious and she was inviting you to quit. And I KNOW you're serious, and I don't think you should quit. I'd find that approach pretty hard to deal with.

 

[DogwoodTree]

The word "manipulative" is one of those words I tend to avoid because it can mean different things to different people and it's not worth the trouble. She came across as as.......sort of threatening?

This makes sense.

Which it probably wasn't, but it wasn't the kind of thing that would leave me wanting to come back. It sounded to me like she thought you weren't serious and she was inviting you to quit.

Yes exactly. How did she expect me to respond to this?

Once I was able to start thinking straight, my second instinct (the first one was self-destructive in nature...not good) was to prove to her how desperately I wanted to get better, and show her how hard I can work, and go through that book with a fine-toothed comb to find all the possible tidbits that had any sort of positive spin on it for me. But that's how it felt manipulative/conniving/tricky, you know? It was like she was challenging me by accusing me of the opposite of how she wanted me to respond...that I was supposed to come back trying much harder to do a good job and impress her, and that would help her feel better about the work she's doing. Does that make sense?

And like someone else said...if I instead walk away, her concerns would be proven right, that I wasn't actually committed to the work or getting better.

It feels like there isn't much space for an authentic response from me. Either I try to fake more enthusiasm so she won't accuse me of pushing her away or avoiding the work, or I pull away to create more space from someone who now doesn't feel safe and this shows that her accusations are correct. Or I keep working with her from as authentic a space as I can manage (which now includes a significant lack of confidence regarding her motives or ability to understand me), and risk continuing to have my commitment questioned.

Or she saw something in me that really needs to be addressed and she just had a crappy way of bringing it up.

But I've put up with so much shit from so many people because I naively give them the benefit of the doubt even as my alarm bells are clanging all the way through my head and my stomach turns every time I think about that person.

At what point do you walk away simply for the sake of honoring your own internal alarm system?

 

[joeylittle]

Some observations, they may or may not be helpful.

With his exploratory efforts, I always felt safe to express my concerns without my commitment being questioned. I didn't detect that kind of...softness...from her. It was actually kinda harsh the way she was talking. Her voice was a little louder than usual, firmer. When she first started talking for this part, I thought, "Here's the shift from giving my background to getting some actual feedback from her. This is where we start to do actual work, rather than just getting her caught up."

I was wondering just this, when I came to the post where you wrote it. I don't think she was manipulating you at all. I do think she has a style that is very different from your current T; I'm also wondering if you think it's possible you are hearing' her differently because of her gender, especially given your struggles with your mother.

But it didn't start with any positive feedback at all. It didn't start with any acknowledgement of how far I've come already, or how I've pushed through some tough stuff, or how the things I've done already have been productive. This was really important with my regular T.

This is exactly the sort of thing that I would encourage you to tell her. The fact is, EMDR is pretty rigorous. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with her being direct with you, as she was - but, it's also very possible for her to do the EMDR work with you and be softer about it. The work itself doesn't require pushiness or hardness.

So, in my mind, the true test would be whether or not she can adjust to your feedback. Sometimes, I think it's a little like getting a massage. They say once, 'tell me if the pressure is wrong' - and I think experienced ones ask a few times, but others seem to assume that you will remember. You may need to give her some feedback so she can change her approach.

As for the relationship, because of the Asperger's, I'm not even sure the kind of warm, connected relationship you're "supposed" to have is possible for me.

This makes me wonder how much experience she has with Asperger's, and/or whether or not she is willing to get some more of an education from you, on how it works with you.

This is where allowing her and your T to talk to each other could be incredibly useful.

I don't know. I think I would feel too intimidated to be able to contribute to the conversation.

You don't have to be there. I would encourage you to sign the release that allows them to talk - if they haven't already - and then, maybe even show your T this thread and ask for him to connect with her about you, and some of the basic things he has learned about being successful with you. I'm personally very dependent on that exchange of information. Without my T talking to certain other clinicians I work with, I'd have a very hard time communicating some of my background, without being too worried that they are evaluating everything I'm saying. When a clinician can talk directly to a peer, there's no 'noise' in the middle, of the client struggling with starting a new relationship.

But that's how it felt manipulative/conniving/tricky, you know? It was like she was challenging me by accusing me of the opposite of how she wanted me to respond...that I was supposed to come back trying much harder to do a good job and impress her, and that would help her feel better about the work she's doing. Does that make sense?

And like someone else said...if I instead walk away, her concerns would be proven right, that I wasn't actually committed to the work or getting better.

I think it's much simpler than that. I honestly believe, from what you wrote, that she isn't reading you right. She's being very direct, without any cushion; that's not to manipulate you, that's her version of matching your affect. And, she may have found that the sort of 'coach' dynamic is one that works generally well. But - it's not working on you.

My advice would be, talk with your T, really fill him in, and tell him to connect with her so there can be better continuity of care. Then, plan to follow that up with another session with her where you talk about how you were really responding in the moment to the things she was saying, and your concerns that she was manipulating you, and the ways you found yourself feeling alienated instead of included. Talk to her about the Aspergers, and ask her how you can help her understand how it's manifesting with you, so she knows where you're at while you are listening.

It's OK to go slow. A few sessions spent on building a therapeutic alliance are going to go a long way towards making this a successful process. And, if at the end of trying to build that alliance, you find it's not connecting for you, then you can know that you really did confront some of your own fears by thoroughly talking this stuff out with her. It will make you even more able to work with whomever you do find that you like.

 

[DogwoodTree]

I'm also wondering if you think it's possible you are hearing' her differently because of her gender, especially given your struggles with your mother.

Yes, this is possible. I keep looking for "data" to indicate one way or the other whether I'm misinterpreting her or whether she's truly being more blunt. Regular T is so careful not to use terms that might sound like blaming or accusation, whereas the new T has already said things like "you're just projecting here..."

This is exactly the sort of thing that I would encourage you to tell her. The fact is, EMDR is pretty rigorous.

So I first read your post last night and have been thinking about it a lot since. Forgive me for being obtuse, but could you give an example of what this might look like? What might I say to her to communicate how I experienced the conversation?

So, in my mind, the true test would be whether or not she can adjust to your feedback.

The more emotional distance I get from the session, the more I feel like I could probably adapt sufficiently to work with her on some level, even learning to give more feedback so that she can also adapt. I can see where this might be beneficial in learning to communicate with a woman who feels caustic to me. But will there be enough of a sense of safety within that relationship to do the trauma work? Maybe I'm assuming too soon that she's not flexible enough to meet me where I am...

I've been so frustrated over the past two years with my regular T about how much time I have to keep spending in therapy working on how to relate more healthily with my mom when my top priority was supposed to be working on my marriage and my ability to "show up" in the marriage for my DH. The regular crises with mom keep subverting therapy time away from working on the trauma history and other issues that get between DH and me. Now I'm paying more to see a T who I like less and yet again, it seems that the focus is shifting to working on my issues with my mom instead of the challenges within my marriage. It actually increases my sense of resentment towards my mom, that even as I've reduced contact with her, she keeps intruding on my private mental and emotional life.

This makes me wonder how much experience she has with Asperger's, and/or whether or not she is willing to get some more of an education from you, on how it works with you.

I don't think she has any experience with autism. This is not ideal of course. As far as I've found, there is only one T in this whole area who has any significant experience working with high-functioning autism (as opposed to low-functioning), and she works more with children and learning disabilities, not trauma. Last I checked, she's not taking new clients.

This trauma T I've started working with...her policies are very strict about how much time she will spend in communication with me outside of a session. Anything more than 5 minutes to listen to a voicemail, read an email, or talk on the phone, and she can start charging. So I'm hesitant to send her any information or even an email processing things discussed in the session, even if I don't expect a response.

I would encourage you to sign the release that allows them to talk - if they haven't already - and then, maybe even show your T this thread and ask for him to connect with her about you, and some of the basic things he has learned about being successful with you.

I think I've signed a release for my regular T to talk with the new T, but I don't think I've done a release for her to talk back with him. It just hasn't come up. I get the impression these Ts don't talk much amongst themselves about clients anyway, although I really wish they would.

She's being very direct, without any cushion; that's not to manipulate you, that's her version of matching your affect.

My affect in these sessions might include being direct, but it's primarily soaked in fear and anxiety. I can feel completely calm and self-possessed up until I walk into the building, but at that point I turn into a quivering coward no matter how hard I try to stay in touch with my inner sense of self. Is the direct approach appropriate for someone who can't look you in the eye and regularly fights back tears in the session?

 

[joeylittle]

Forgive me for being obtuse, but could you give an example of what this might look like? What might I say to her to communicate how I experienced the conversation?

You're not being obtuse.

An example could be (maybe) around the moment she said she was getting a push-pull signal from you. from your description it sounds like you were blindsided by the turn the conversation took there, and you felt misunderstood, but didn't know how to say that because she was so definitive about it. (I wasn't there so I'm guessing). How her word choice, tone, body language all affect you - and what goes on in your head that feels bad, like the opposite of relationship building. Ugh, I'm not explaining well.

. But will there be enough of a sense of safety within that relationship to do the trauma work? Maybe I'm assuming too soon that she's not flexible enough to meet me where I am...

Often that sense of safety comes from the process of building a shared vocabulary about your treatment plan. And it comes from being confident in her knowledge and ability. So I would say, don't assume she's not flexible; just make sure you are openly sharing what you think could be working better.

So I'm hesitant to send her any information or even an email processing things discussed in the session, even if I don't expect a response.

Totally. It makes sense to do it in session. Sometimes I'll start a session by having my therapist read something I've written - these sessions are usually the ones about how things are going between he and I, and what I am being negatively affected by, or having worries about, or was hurt by (all in therapy). It's easier to write it as a jumping off point for me, because I'd struggle too much with saying it out loud.

I get the impression these Ts don't talk much amongst themselves about clients anyway, although I really wish they would.

That sounds so foreign to me - mine always have. But now that I think about it, I've always strongly encouraged it. And if she needs the convo to be on billable time, plan to end a session 15 early, or start 15 minutes late. Those 15 minutes can be her on the phone w/your T.

Is the direct approach appropriate for someone who can't look you in the eye and regularly fights back tears in the session?

Honestly - yeah, sometimes I think it is. But the important thing to remember is that they aren't mind readers. Some are more intuitive than others. But until you tell her what your inner experience of the session is - how you are perceiving and interpreting her words and the way she expresses them - she doesn't have a way of knowing.

Really is a bummer about her having zero experience with HFA. It's possible that issue alone means you'll need to look elsewhere. It's 100% fair to ask her what she would like to know about how your autism works. You know much more about that than she does. It's important that she start learning how to read you.

 

[Angela Corgan]

I understand the feeling of being manipulated. However, I persevered and just concentrated on what she was saying. I think with mine she has often had an agenda but it is for my good.

Could this be the same with you?

I am at almost the end of my two years UK NHS psychotherapy (actually 17 months over 2 years) and have learnt to trust my T. At the beginning it was like I had a skin of oversensitivity and now I feel that'
yes she is the 'boss' but she does KNOW what she is doing. So perhaps calm down and just give her a chance?
I am sure she is aware of the Aspergers and accommodates it.

 

[DogwoodTree]

An example could be (maybe) around the moment she said she was getting a push-pull signal from you. from your description it sounds like you were blindsided by the turn the conversation took there, and you felt misunderstood, but didn't know how to say that because she was so definitive about it.

Yes, that's pretty much how I experienced it. She sounded more like she was making a statement than asking a question. The fact that her statements felt so far from the truth of my experience threw me for a loop and I didn't know how to respond.

When it's "in the moment" like that, it's very very rare that I can put words to what I'm feeling at that time. I have to think about it and process it on my own before I'm able to describe it. I haven't yet found a way to communicate my stressful emotions at the moment I experience them. So how can I give her feedback when she says things that mess me up?

I understand I need to go back and revisit this issue with her. Going back and giving feedback after the fact is better than nothing. I feel so nervous with her. I don't detect much softness from her at all, and whether that's because I'm projecting my mom onto her or because that's just not her style, the result is still that I don't feel comfortable with her. It turns my stomach to think of being vulnerable with her at all at this point.

And it comes from being confident in her knowledge and ability.

Yeah, I think I don't have much confidence in her (even though regular T says she's one of the best trauma Ts he knows of in the state). Not sure if this is something specific to her or in general for women therapists.

Honestly - yeah, sometimes I think it is.

I had made the comment in the session before this one that I wanted someone to just tell me what I was doing wrong and I would work on it and fix it. Maybe she was trying to give me that? But why would she question my commitment to doing the work and getting better? I really don't get where that came from. Is it wrong to express my anxiety and fear regarding a specific therapy approach?

It's 100% fair to ask her what she would like to know about how your autism works. You know much more about that than she does. It's important that she start learning how to read you.

I've really been thinking about this a lot. I've decided not to give her the letter I wrote originally in response to the session. That letter made point after point about why I think her assertion was wrong, or why it might seem right on the surface but missed deeper truths. It was more a logical argument than anything, and I don't think that will be helpful with her. I tried that same approach about that book (presenting a logical argument built on data and evidence regarding my concerns about EMDR as expressed in the book she had me read), and her response seemed almost defensive and arguing back rather than really listening to me and showing curiosity like my regular T would've done. Maybe that's actually a more normal response to a logical argument, and maybe I've been spoiled with my regular T who isn't usually bothered by that kind of thing. He wants to understand my perspective rather than defend his perspective on an issue. And that helps me back off, too, and start to look for other ways to see things.

So instead, I'm thinking through what information I want her to have about me, what might be helpful to give her insights into how my mind works. So...I made a list of my therapy goals (this was also part of my homework this week), and I've made a list of how autism affects me, and I've made a list of some of my specific fears in therapy. Some of the same information is in there as the original letter, but maybe it will come across as more cooperative and less confrontational?

One of my kids, my 9-year-old son, also seems to have Asperger's (he's very high-functioning so we've not had him tested). I've found that he thrives under a very logical approach to discipline. If he does something wrong, he will listen curiously to my calm explanation of what went wrong and how he can fix it next time, and then he'll do his very best to correct the misbehavior in the future, to the best of his understanding. He's not threatened by identifying his wrongdoing...instead, so long as I stay calm and rational with him, he sees it as simply part of his training and growing up. He's very receptive to correction when I show him how different behavior makes more logical sense.

I think this is the kind of guidance I'm looking for. Instead of assuming I have ulterior motives underlying maladjusted behaviors, help me see other possible responses and the logic behind a different, healthier approach to situations. Women seem so quick to assume that ulterior motives drive my behavior, when I really am trying to do the right thing to the best of my understanding. If I'm doing something wrong, it's way more often because I don't understand any better way of doing it, but once I see what a better way is, I simply do that. Those better options have to take into account reality as I experience it; for example, I've not been able to logic my way out of the trauma flashbacks, so any approach to restoring physical intimacy with my husband has to account for that obstacle and resolve it in some way. But I suspect that the way out for me is way more rational-based than emotional-based.

 

[Freedomfighter]

First, I know the right response is to talk it out with her. I've already written a long letter exp...

After reading your post my first thought was that she was belittling you like a little child. Eat those beans, don't you want to grow up to be big and strong?
There is something wrong with her.

I would bluntly come out and ask her if she wants to switch places, her on the couch and you in the therapist chair.

But that would probably not go over well, hahahahaihaiahaihaihaiai

 

[joeylittle]

So how can I give her feedback when she says things that mess me up?

I understand I need to go back and revisit this issue with her. Going back and giving feedback after the fact is better than nothing.

It's hard to do it in the moment. I don't even know how important that is, really, because taking apart how we have our reactions is part of the process of therapy. Giving her feedback after the fact is actually pretty great (as opposed to thinking of it as better than nothing). And what you wrote here:

She sounded more like she was making a statement than asking a question. The fact that her statements felt so far from the truth of my experience threw me for a loop and I didn't know how to respond.

...is clear as a bell, really. If she can't take this information and use it to tailor how she talks with you, then she's definitely not going to work for you long term. Remembering to keep things open-ended, to not frame statements as judgements but to leave space for the client to respond - that's (to my mind) a pretty easy adjustment for her to make.

I feel so nervous with her. I don't detect much softness from her at all, and whether that's because I'm projecting my mom onto her or because that's just not her style, the result is still that I don't feel comfortable with her. It turns my stomach to think of being vulnerable with her at all at this point.

If you could tell her this, it would be a productive conversation. I understand if you feel like it's too intimate, right now. But the specific - about softness - is something you could ask her; how she would describe her communication and/or interpersonal style as a therapist. Asking her that will allow her to articulate what it is, and you can then easily move into a conversation about how it affects you - which will also be productive.

Right now, any time spent really talking about how you are struggling in session will go miles towards building the therapeutic alliance - and that is where you are at with this therapist, right now, in my opinion.

I had made the comment in the session before this one that I wanted someone to just tell me what I was doing wrong and I would work on it and fix it. Maybe she was trying to give me that?

Quite possible.

But why would she question my commitment to doing the work and getting better? I really don't get where that came from

Because if it's true, it's something you can admit to and then begin addressing.

Is it wrong to express my anxiety and fear regarding a specific therapy approach?

Not at all. Not in the least. But, I wonder if she understands that's what you are expressing. Is it possible she is reading you as expressing skepticism? The answer to this question will come in a dialogue with her, and no other way.

It doesn't mean you need to change how you relate - so much as she needs the opportunity to learn how you relate.

maybe I've been spoiled with my regular T who isn't usually bothered by that kind of thing. He wants to understand my perspective rather than defend his perspective on an issue. And that helps me back off, too, and start to look for other ways to see things.

This is good feedback as well. You can tell her that you wanted to share your perspective on it, and on a more logic, science-based level; that you experienced her dismissal as minimizing your perspective rather than accepting it, and then helping you open up your thinking.

So...I made a list of my therapy goals (this was also part of my homework this week), and I've made a list of how autism affects me, and I've made a list of some of my specific fears in therapy. Some of the same information is in there as the original letter, but maybe it will come across as more cooperative and less confrontational?

This sounds really great. And I'm sure it will be effective. It will help her understand how you think, so that she can help you work with how you think and be a collaborator in shifting things to a more balanced perspective in general.

It always helps me a whole lot to remember that therapy is a collaboration, rather than a give-and-take. The shared goal is to get me where we've agreed I need to go.

Your last two paragraphs are just amazing. I hope you share that all with her.