Recovered Memory Vs. False Memory

[Anarchy]

Thanks Shimmerz,

I didn't realize that the leading lights (darkeners) of the two sides were one family!

I think the actual science on traumatic memories is pretty good, we know from work on animals and scans of humans that the hippocampus (the bit of the brain that organizes memory) messes up with heavy doses of stress hormones, especially cortisol, and that in the case of studies on wild primates (Sapolsky), that high levels of cortisol can even kill neurons in the hippocampus.

We also know from criminal investigations that a child who has no conscious memory of abuse, of the abusers appearance or the abusers name, can, un-prompted, re-enact in play with anatomically correct dolls, the acts which the abuser had recorded in their own porno video of the abuse.

Can details of memories change?

of course - in Britain and Ireland, we drive on the left, on the continent, on the right. It is surprising how many memories I have of driving on the continent, that have me driving on the left (so that's what all the honking of horns and flashing of head lights was about?). Whether that change is substantive (did he rape you?) - I don't think so
or whether it is trivial - was the mole on the left or on the right - I think is more likely

I think we can thank that woman's parents and other litigious pervs for denying us the best tool of all for getting through the dissociative amnesia - hypnosis.

Freud's re-canting his papers where he published about the CSA of his "hysterical" patients, set the cause of uncovering and validating the experiences -of probably millions of people- back by at least 100 years.

So many graves to piss on, so little time and so little money for the beer to help it flow...

I'm not going to advocate murder, but at the same time, I'm not going to shed a tear for an abuser, nor would I vote to convict someone who'd deep sixed an abuser, if I was ever on a jury duty.

 

[theshadowoftheliving]

Stuff like the FMSF are the stuff that's kept me stuck for years, trying to convince myself that there is absolutely no way that my memories could be true, that I am, indeed, crazy, and my memories prove my craziness. At least, this is what I was told by a really terrible therapist in the past, and then what I tried to convince myself for years, which didn't do anything towards helping me get better. Stuff like this also is what has prevented me from telling anyone what happened. It's made me feel isolated and crazy and now, decades after the abuse happened, i'm still trying to not fall apart.

I know that memories are not always accurate. I get that. But what stake do any of us have in falsely accusing someone of CSA? What would that gain us? I just feel so frustrated that these beliefs are still perpetrated, as if we WANT to have experienced these terrible things.

 

[Powder]

Repression is a psychoanalytic term from Freud. It is not a scientifically measurable or clinically useful term or definition, unless one is a psychoanalyst.

Here is a coherent post by a psychiatrist/therapist regarding the "apples and oranges" use of the two terms as somehow interchangeable, when they are not.

[DLMURL]http://www.forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/dissociation-versus-repression.778998/[/DLMURL]

I think they're pretty apples and oranges. Repression is a psychoanalytic defense mechanism from Freud. Dissociation is a clinical concept that can be measured with evidence-based tools. So when I suspect dissociation, I'll use the DES. Repression, I don't worry about so much. I've heard others try to explain the difference as dissociation being more of a "vertical split" in which disagreeable memories or personality fragments are split off from the whole. These people state that in repression, these things are pushed downward into the subconscious. That explanation never seemed particularly scientific or useful to me. I think this mostly comes up when discussing the idea of "recovered memories", a phenomenon that is actually more likely to be secondary to a dissociative process. But the whole "repressed/recovered memory" thing gives me a squicky feeling (and yes, that's the technical term), given the often-times unethical, boundary-impaired providers who are more often than not the proponents of such things.

(sunlioness, emphasis mine)

 

[Changing4Best]

I had repressed memories. When they were discovered in therapy, I was troubled, so I asked my parents if they were aware that my father's father had molested me. My dad didn't miss a beat and said that it was past the statute of limitations. I later told my therapist what my dad had said and how he'd said it right after what I had asked. She agreed that he knew and as I recalled, he'd done nothing to stop the molestations or abuse. He was too busy drinking with his friends....

 

[Ronin]

I believe the emotions and imaginery of recovered memories is always real as in mattering to the individual and their life. As in physical, literal truth about life? That's to be verified, if possible. I don't really think advocates of 'FMS' are grasping the healing potential of treating recovered memories as valid, even with a dose of healthy skepticism. And I'm not sure I'd call it a syndrome (I mean seriously, without outlined basic signs of what constitutes a syndrome? They're as unscientific as what they so criticize in other people. If not more of a joke because of claims of authority.)

My personal stuff? Lot of it true. Lot of it complete bs. Utterly usual mechanisms in messed up circumstances can do hell lot of a mess. But putting the pieces together helps me in every case, if nothing else, I have something to do instead of self harm. Curiosity triumphs resignation and indignation alike.

 

[Chava]

Interesting to read lots of different thoughts on this. There is probably truth to some therapists being suggestive. Mine asks more open-ended questions and doesn't make suggestions or many specific interpretations at all, which is helpful when so many of my stuff is implicit memory, somatic, always on the edge of dissociated and inaccessible, with intense charge.

So there is some validity in training therapists to not interpret too quickly or too specifically, or make suggestions. But that push has to come from other professionals in the therapy and science worlds, not a couple pissed off parents who have been accused of sexual abuse.

And there shouldn't be a new "syndrome" that can only be "diagnosed" or suggested (? or wtf) based on the accused denying the claim. That's just totally f*cked up. I see they had a lot Ph.Ds on their board. What kind of Ph.D. would want any association with taking claims of sexual abuse and turning them into a totally invalidating "syndrome"? What credibility do they gain by being involved in a non-scientific foundation that largely protects child molesters and likely attracts a disgusting load of them to their cause? PhDs who are molesters themselves? I just don't get it.

Implicit memory is incredibly reliable and trauma experts are getting better and understanding this. For the poorly trained minority of therapists who might make strong suggestions that aren't accurate, this FMSF doesn't even help. It was originated by the wrong people (pissed off parents trying to defend themselves, not scientists), makes use of holey research that attempts to back their claims, and attempts to create a sort of counter diagnosis to entirely discredit the victims. Sounds more like a big piece-o-shit than a credible organization.

 

[KwanYingirl]

Nothing to add except to say that Elizabeth Loftus should be charged with crimes against humanity. A truly dangerous person. Science is proving her wrong and it's a beautiful thing to watch happen.

I have recovered memories that have been validated. I actually think the memories were dissociated and stored in my parts. As I integrate these parts, memories flood me. It is terrifying and destabilizing. No one in their right mind would think this shit up. Children find protection even when the care takers neglect and abuse her. Repressed and recovered memories are valid. I struggle with the timeline though, finding it difficult to put together a cohesive history.

 

[Powder]

Repressed and recovered memories are valid. I struggle with the timeline though, finding it difficult to put together a cohesive history.

I validate the challenge of a timeline; however, try to put together an airtight timeline for positive childhood memories and you come up against the same issues.

The passage and perception of Time to children is not the same as to adults. That's for certain.

Also, with memory of anything from childhood, there is always the need to "listen" to the child mind/memory and then look at it again from the current/adult perspective. It's not at all that the child-self is "wrong" only a child.

Case in point, I had a porcelain figurine in my bedroom as a child. I saw it again, identical, at Value Village, and bought it. I put it in my current room.

When I saw and recognized it, I saw the figurine that I saw as a child, same way.

After looking at it for about three days, it suddenly dawned on me that the figurine is of Cinderella! As a child, I saw a girl holding a stick. I didn't see the stick as a broom, nor did recognize the shoe as symbolic of "Cinderella's story" at all.

So, as an adult, I see this and think "that's a non-Disney image of Cinderella." As a child, I saw a poor slave girl holding a stick broom. I didn't even notice, as a child, her tiny toes peeking out under her dress. All the details were lost on me as a kid, and all I recorded was an overall impression and the emotion I got from looking at her "sadness/poverty/pity."

So I accurately used my child memory to identify the identical figurine, but as an adult, I now see that I got the gist right, but missed the assessment of the memory as "Cinderella" a cultural identity, fairy tale persona known to almost all adults.

Many of my memories of molestation are this way. I was angry at being lied to, suffocated, or what have you, as a child. I felt like a failure when I "failed" to do whatever it was the abuser wanted, sexually. I felt a failure. I was instructed to do things in front of the camera, and then I was told that I didn't do they right. So shame/failure is the emotion of the memory fragment.
But as an adult, I'm aware that I was being photographed and video recorded in the nude doing things for adults to enjoy inappropriately, perhaps for my pornographic image to be sold or viewed by others. So as an adult, I know that what happened after and on other occasions was also traumatic and painful, physically, even though this particular memory of not performing correctly focused on being disappointed in myself and not the sexual abuse itself.

Another memory was of being molested, but what stood out to the child me was the suffocation and being lied to, and being forced to leave my little sister with the perp, my father, for God knows what. So, as an adult, I clearly remember "how it felt" then to "little me," but as an adult I feel anger at the sexual abuse aspect and the motives and lack of love and fatherly protection. These were always there, like the shoe above, but they didn't "TIP ME OFF" to the correct identification as "MY Dad Was Molesting, Raping, Pimping me and Recording It, perhaps Selling me and the images!"

For many of us with child trauma from parents, there are these alarms that don't go off fully until later in life, when you least expect it.

I feel tremendous compassion for people because at any time, they could remember and "put the puzzle pieces together" and see a new image where the same memory didn't fully serve for decades to "label" their trauma. This could happen to any of us.

Whatever you want to call it, it's a horrible and also revelatory process. There can be realizations that lead to greater self-compassion: "I really went through hell!" "My childhood was terrible!" "I didn't deserve those parents!" and so on toward a greater sense of self parenting and care.

Also, this can release people from feeling forced to relate to the abusers and to see how expertly they, for a lifetime, hid the trauma from themselves and the world to play "happy families" in a starring role as the perfect child in a fantasy world where anything is what you make of it to get through the hell.

@shimmerz I am sorry, I feel like I ranted too much on your thread today, as my sister wants to visit tonight and some parts of me are angry that she is still playing the part with the abusive parents. I hate it. But I want to be a good sister to her. It's a situation in which I feel torn, and it's affecting me greatly, making my anger and hurt rise to the surface.

 

[shimmerz]

No @Muse, please, not at all. I appreciate very much your input. I don't consider it to be a rant. It is valuable input that I believe can help people when they struggle with whether they can 'believe' their repressed memories. I thank you for caring so much and adding so much valuable information. :hug:

 

[Powder]

You're so kind, @shimmerz. Thank you for your generosity to me.

 

[Hope4Now]

I've read this thread several times. I have a mix of recovered memories and what I've been calling "reframed" memories. A bit like how @Muse described the figurine then and now. I am having a very hard time "believing" my own recovered memories even though I have read the research about dissociation and understand how it works. My parts are just too invested in believing it's not true, I guess.

After looking at it for about three days, it suddenly dawned on me that the figurine is of Cinderella! As a child, I saw a girl holding a stick. I didn't see the stick as a broom, nor did recognize the shoe as symbolic of "Cinderella's story" at all.

This is a great explanation of a sort of memory of memory (the child memory) and how experience changes memory (the adult recognition of the limitations of a childhood memory).

 

[shimmerz]

This is a great explanation of a sort of memory of memory (the child memory) and how experience changes memory (the adult recognition of the limitations of a childhood memory).

It is isn't it? See @Muse? It is all good. We all help! You just happen to be brilliant at this topic! ;)\\

My memories are very much of the somatic type. I know I have been sexually abused. I haven't 'gotten' there yet. But I felt it. I didn't experience pictures of that yet. Other things I have and I doubted them but then I looked at my past reactions (pillows) and it fits. I don't need to care about the when and the where so much. I am more concerned with how that affected me. Most of my peeps involved are dead though so I don't need to be concerned with the 'who's' because I don't still have relationships with them. That would be a mind bender though.

Is there a possibility (because I don't know), that one could jump to a conclusion as to 'who did what'? How do you deal with those issues as they are being worked out? Is it possible that this woman could have blamed her father and it wasn't really him? (I don't think so given the story, but am just curious about how this would work)