OK I know its an old thread. I echo Anthony's main point about self-diagnosing. I did not know I was suffering from anything! I am also not interested in collecting diagnoses and I will deny the PTSD stuff for sure. It has been since my great difficulty maintaining sobriety that I was told I had PTSD from childhood events and abuse. It was in hindsight when the clinicians went over their findings that the proverbial lightbulb went off in my head. Or rather smacked me upside the head. Wow! The PTSD diagnoses allows clear communication among the professinals. If I focus too much on it I feel worse.
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Self Diagnosis Is Not An Option
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anthony
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The Internet is a good and bad thing, simple as that, but the problem is, people read a checklist of symptoms and fit themselves within things nowadays... then convince themselves they have something they don't.
If you asked 100 people who had endured a traumatic event that met the criteria for PTSD, statistically, only 12% approximately would have it, only 5% - 7% would have it for life, the rest would recover fully, yet if you gave all 100 the diagnosis list, which only outlines the symptoms, you would be surprised that around 50% - 80% would say they have it.
Now if you told them the unpublished facts, the criterion that diagnosticians learn, the information that is contained within the DSM, but not on the diagnosis page, for example, the symptom severity is a 7 out of 10 average, and then the absolutely most important criterion right at the bottom of the diagnosis itself, which is published yet ignored, being, does it create "significant" social and functioning impairment (words to that affect)... which people just skip right over as they go to work each day, attend their social outings, family gatherings, etc. That is not social, employment or significant functioning impairment... being isolated in your home, going out only to get food or pay a bill, absolute essentials, no schooling, no work, etc... or the inability to hold a job / constant daily struggles with employers, because of your inability to function... that is significant impairment.
People just jump right over things they either don't know about, or don't want to hear. There is also a physical component to PTSD, specific traits the physician is looking for physically, even if you met every item on the symptom checklist, if your physical reactions don't match whats coming out of your mouth... then you are likely pulling their leg.
The Internet is a dangerous weapon with medicine... whilst it is also an essential and even life saving tool. Double edged sword... one sharp side, one blunt side.
Again, even I was wrong when I used to have a diagnosis tool on this site, which I pulled eventually, because it was inaccurate and leading people falsely.
If you asked 100 people who had endured a traumatic event that met the criteria for PTSD, statistically, only 12% approximately would have it, only 5% - 7% would have it for life, the rest would recover fully, yet if you gave all 100 the diagnosis list, which only outlines the symptoms, you would be surprised that around 50% - 80% would say they have it.
Now if you told them the unpublished facts, the criterion that diagnosticians learn, the information that is contained within the DSM, but not on the diagnosis page, for example, the symptom severity is a 7 out of 10 average, and then the absolutely most important criterion right at the bottom of the diagnosis itself, which is published yet ignored, being, does it create "significant" social and functioning impairment (words to that affect)... which people just skip right over as they go to work each day, attend their social outings, family gatherings, etc. That is not social, employment or significant functioning impairment... being isolated in your home, going out only to get food or pay a bill, absolute essentials, no schooling, no work, etc... or the inability to hold a job / constant daily struggles with employers, because of your inability to function... that is significant impairment.
People just jump right over things they either don't know about, or don't want to hear. There is also a physical component to PTSD, specific traits the physician is looking for physically, even if you met every item on the symptom checklist, if your physical reactions don't match whats coming out of your mouth... then you are likely pulling their leg.
The Internet is a dangerous weapon with medicine... whilst it is also an essential and even life saving tool. Double edged sword... one sharp side, one blunt side.
Again, even I was wrong when I used to have a diagnosis tool on this site, which I pulled eventually, because it was inaccurate and leading people falsely.
I work in a field that if I admit that I have a mental illness I could lose my license. But I can have hypertension. I can have coronary artery disease. Or diabetes. But if I admit that I have PTSD - someone could protest that I am mentally incapacitated to take care of patients and then be suspended until further notice. And quite frankly, I think my PTSD makes me a much better doctor.
Patients self-diagnoses all of the time: both in favor of disease and in denial of disease. I listen to patients because I think they have self knowledge that is important - but i can tell you that people misdiagnose themselves more frequently or not because they do not have clinical skills to differentiate the diagnosis. So many things have similar symptoms and signs.
The DSM-IV has so much overlap between diagnoses that the signs and symptoms are sometimes useless - unless you have a diagnostician with clinical experience.
Patients self-diagnoses all of the time: both in favor of disease and in denial of disease. I listen to patients because I think they have self knowledge that is important - but i can tell you that people misdiagnose themselves more frequently or not because they do not have clinical skills to differentiate the diagnosis. So many things have similar symptoms and signs.
The DSM-IV has so much overlap between diagnoses that the signs and symptoms are sometimes useless - unless you have a diagnostician with clinical experience.
Upside Down Eagle
Diamond Member
Thanks for the article.
I guess I'm one of these people who did self-diagnose PTSD, even though then, it may be just an illusion. The thing is, my therapist has diagnosed me with a variety of things, which are general anxiety disorder, add and borderline. I feel that all these symptoms I have are related to the verbal and serious physical abuse I have experienced the first fifteen years of my life.
I'm not simply browsing for a diagnose because I blow things out of proportion, I think. Actually, I am very happy that I found this site and can really relate to what the people here have to say. It makes me feel, for once, that I'm not completely insane. But I think I will talk to my therapist about her view on this issue.
Regards,
Radise
I guess I'm one of these people who did self-diagnose PTSD, even though then, it may be just an illusion. The thing is, my therapist has diagnosed me with a variety of things, which are general anxiety disorder, add and borderline. I feel that all these symptoms I have are related to the verbal and serious physical abuse I have experienced the first fifteen years of my life.
I'm not simply browsing for a diagnose because I blow things out of proportion, I think. Actually, I am very happy that I found this site and can really relate to what the people here have to say. It makes me feel, for once, that I'm not completely insane. But I think I will talk to my therapist about her view on this issue.
Regards,
Radise
PTSD shares many clinical features with borderline personality disorder yet they are definitely not the same and don't respond the same to treatment. The anxiety may be part of OR what made you susceptible to developing PTSD.
I was treated for thirty years - with so many different meds - and yet was never happy, normal, better - I've made more progress in one year of directed treatment for PTSD than I ever did being treated for depression, BPD, SAD, PMDD...
But you have to be part of the process - trust in a therapist is crucial, and by trusting - telling everyhting even the ugly stuff.
Wishing you much peace in your search for healing.
I was treated for thirty years - with so many different meds - and yet was never happy, normal, better - I've made more progress in one year of directed treatment for PTSD than I ever did being treated for depression, BPD, SAD, PMDD...
But you have to be part of the process - trust in a therapist is crucial, and by trusting - telling everyhting even the ugly stuff.
Wishing you much peace in your search for healing.
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anthony
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Yep... a lot of people still don't get that its not just about trauma for PTSD. You can have endured lots of trauma in your life, and not have PTSD. You can have endured lots of trauma and have BPD, ADD, Bipolar, etc... just because trauma is present, does not mean PTSD.
As Girl3 stated, many diagnoses have overlapping symptomology, and a person can easily become confused and off-track, by assuming they have PTSD because they have trauma in their past, even longevity trauma.
Suffering childhood abuse does not mean you have complex trauma... you may actually come out in adulthood with BPD, GAD and panic attacks... some mild depression... not PTSD.
Its a fallacy that people think that way, hence why self diagnosis is just not an option. Nor is being told you have PTSD from a counsellor, nurse, social worker, MD, etc viable either... you need specialist diagnosis, being experienced psychologist or psychiatrist assessment over a period of time to make such correct diagnosis.
As Girl3 stated, many diagnoses have overlapping symptomology, and a person can easily become confused and off-track, by assuming they have PTSD because they have trauma in their past, even longevity trauma.
Suffering childhood abuse does not mean you have complex trauma... you may actually come out in adulthood with BPD, GAD and panic attacks... some mild depression... not PTSD.
Its a fallacy that people think that way, hence why self diagnosis is just not an option. Nor is being told you have PTSD from a counsellor, nurse, social worker, MD, etc viable either... you need specialist diagnosis, being experienced psychologist or psychiatrist assessment over a period of time to make such correct diagnosis.
Anthony I agree with you 100% that you can not diagnose yourself. Besides the fact that you need the background/education/training to understand how to differentiate a diagnosis because they do overlap, we are also not able to be objective about ourselves-if we were, we would not have any illness. Trying to diagnose yourself is like doing an experiment with drugs and being the examiner and the ginea pig.
There is a forum for traumatic brain injury that has a radio show and about a month ago a woman was on there stating how any stress can cause ptsd and that is why almost everyone with head injury has ptsd. The host agreed with everything she said. I was really getting worked up because I really think it is wrong for people to make stuff up as they go along.
At risk of offending you Anthony, and I am sure that it is likely different in other countries, here in the US, counselors and social workers can and do diagnose ptsd or any other mental illness. They are very qualified-obviously some are better than others, just as some psychiatrists are much better than others. As a matter of fact, a psychiatrist generally does not spend more than 10 minutes with patients, and rely heavily on correspondence from counselors and social workers who spend an hour weekly/bi weekly, etc. Psychologists are the ones that perform certain tests that conselors and social workers cannot perform, such as the MMPI (which would r/o or confirm personality disorders as well as other things). If a counselor or sw is uncertain because of overlapping symptoms, they will send their client to a psychologist for testing, just as they refer to a psychiatrist for med. as sw, counselor and psychologists cannot prescribe.
It is possible that it varies in other parts of the country but I have been to many states for trainings and found the same. Social Workers and Counselors both have 4 years of education in the area of psychology, and then must have 3 more years in a counseling or social work program. Those 3 years are spent with some choice, but certain criteria must be met. Counselors can go into clinical, school, or rehab, etc. While those therapist are receiving this 3 year training plus working 3000 hrs under supervision following education but before licensure is availabe even though they have passed their state exam. (each has their preferences such as family, chidren, addiction, trauma, etc.) Some who are high achievers seek additional conferences, seminars , trainings on their own in their area of interest. This is not required, it costs extra, and is often on weekends or in addition to their regular schedule.
None of the professions should diagnose family-we are not objective with our family. It is unprofessional to attempt a diagnosis with a family member. Some diagnosis there is a lengthy test for , ex: personality disorders, this lengthy test is not necessary for anxiety or depressive disorders detected with a short instrument. ADHD requires teacher and parent reports. One thing about ADHD though is that so often the professional has not asked if there has been trauma, or the parent is not forthcoming. (Women in domestic violence situations who have had their ribs or jaw broke with tell you about 805 of the time that their kids were not exposed) My daughter was diagnosed by 2 PhD Psychologists as having ADHD Neither would see her for counseling because they said she was well adjusted, had no behavioral issues, and grades were good. The both said to have her re-evaluated in 3 years. Finally a child psychiatrist saw something else and at age 16 (10 years of seach/treatment) sent us to Akron Childrens Hospital and a speech pathologist correctly diagnosed her with an auditory processing disability. The best professionals make mistakes regardless of their profession-unfortunately. Where I live, only the adolescent psychiatrist spends 40 minutes with the patient, if not for that, my daughter still would not be properly diagnosed. If there is a medical thing going on, a psychiatrist is definately the way to go, or, in the case with my daughter, I would not allow medication for a 70 pound 14yr old.
Now that being said, I am very interested in how it is done elsewhere, what kind of training is available, particularly in trauma.
There is a forum for traumatic brain injury that has a radio show and about a month ago a woman was on there stating how any stress can cause ptsd and that is why almost everyone with head injury has ptsd. The host agreed with everything she said. I was really getting worked up because I really think it is wrong for people to make stuff up as they go along.
At risk of offending you Anthony, and I am sure that it is likely different in other countries, here in the US, counselors and social workers can and do diagnose ptsd or any other mental illness. They are very qualified-obviously some are better than others, just as some psychiatrists are much better than others. As a matter of fact, a psychiatrist generally does not spend more than 10 minutes with patients, and rely heavily on correspondence from counselors and social workers who spend an hour weekly/bi weekly, etc. Psychologists are the ones that perform certain tests that conselors and social workers cannot perform, such as the MMPI (which would r/o or confirm personality disorders as well as other things). If a counselor or sw is uncertain because of overlapping symptoms, they will send their client to a psychologist for testing, just as they refer to a psychiatrist for med. as sw, counselor and psychologists cannot prescribe.
It is possible that it varies in other parts of the country but I have been to many states for trainings and found the same. Social Workers and Counselors both have 4 years of education in the area of psychology, and then must have 3 more years in a counseling or social work program. Those 3 years are spent with some choice, but certain criteria must be met. Counselors can go into clinical, school, or rehab, etc. While those therapist are receiving this 3 year training plus working 3000 hrs under supervision following education but before licensure is availabe even though they have passed their state exam. (each has their preferences such as family, chidren, addiction, trauma, etc.) Some who are high achievers seek additional conferences, seminars , trainings on their own in their area of interest. This is not required, it costs extra, and is often on weekends or in addition to their regular schedule.
None of the professions should diagnose family-we are not objective with our family. It is unprofessional to attempt a diagnosis with a family member. Some diagnosis there is a lengthy test for , ex: personality disorders, this lengthy test is not necessary for anxiety or depressive disorders detected with a short instrument. ADHD requires teacher and parent reports. One thing about ADHD though is that so often the professional has not asked if there has been trauma, or the parent is not forthcoming. (Women in domestic violence situations who have had their ribs or jaw broke with tell you about 805 of the time that their kids were not exposed) My daughter was diagnosed by 2 PhD Psychologists as having ADHD Neither would see her for counseling because they said she was well adjusted, had no behavioral issues, and grades were good. The both said to have her re-evaluated in 3 years. Finally a child psychiatrist saw something else and at age 16 (10 years of seach/treatment) sent us to Akron Childrens Hospital and a speech pathologist correctly diagnosed her with an auditory processing disability. The best professionals make mistakes regardless of their profession-unfortunately. Where I live, only the adolescent psychiatrist spends 40 minutes with the patient, if not for that, my daughter still would not be properly diagnosed. If there is a medical thing going on, a psychiatrist is definately the way to go, or, in the case with my daughter, I would not allow medication for a 70 pound 14yr old.
Now that being said, I am very interested in how it is done elsewhere, what kind of training is available, particularly in trauma.
A
Anna
Also because psychology and mental illness has only recently come into the light, there is still a lot of misdiagnosis. Especially women who get misdiagnosed with BPD for example when they are actually suffering from PTSD. Aspergers syndrome is also not always recognised in females, much like depression is not diagnosed in men. There does tend to be a lot of gender bias with certain mental illness.
The only person who can make a diagnosis is a professional, whether therapist, psychologist or psychiatrist. My brother was misdiagnosed for years. He was correctly diagnosed by a psychiatrist who then prescribed him the correct medication. Without that he would never have got as far as he has today. He has a chemical imbalance that requires medication.
I was diagnosed by a therapist who was specialised in trauma. Sometimes though it can take awhile before the correct diagnosis comes. Mental illness is a very new subject. In the old days people were just locked away asylums. We have come a long was since then, but there is still a long way to go.
I
The only person who can make a diagnosis is a professional, whether therapist, psychologist or psychiatrist. My brother was misdiagnosed for years. He was correctly diagnosed by a psychiatrist who then prescribed him the correct medication. Without that he would never have got as far as he has today. He has a chemical imbalance that requires medication.
I was diagnosed by a therapist who was specialised in trauma. Sometimes though it can take awhile before the correct diagnosis comes. Mental illness is a very new subject. In the old days people were just locked away asylums. We have come a long was since then, but there is still a long way to go.
I
Professionals are human too, and I think that they may have a bias toward particular diagnosis for whatever reason. A very old friend of mine had been recomended as being very good at diagnosing ADHD. I took my daughter to him for a second opinion. He was the the second Psychologist with a PhD to diagnose her with ADHD. While there and reporting on her behaviors, I told him that I have many of those on the list. We discussed these and he asked me a lot about childhood like having difficulty with reading, which can be a symptom. He diagnosed me with ADHD as well. I did not tell him that I had difficulty reading because I often missed school and stayed home and took care of my mother.
Years later, following a head injury, a well respected neuropsychologist gave me hours of testing to evaluate any cognitive deficits as a result. I was not allowed to comment or ask any questions, only answer or perform the tasks that he requested. When I returned for the evaluation, he told me my memory was impaired (the memory that recalls things we learned in grade school, like how many continents?, name 3 things about Cleopatra?) Finally I asked him, if a person did not attend grade school, would this impact their ability to score on this area? He said absolutely, but that is not the case as who have a masters with a high GPA. This test is a "canned" test and does not allow for individual experiences.
Neither of these examples caused any harm. However, a person who is bi-polar but is diagnosed as depressed and given anti depressants will begin to cycle more rapidly as a result of the medications. For obvious reasons, this can cause further problems for them.
Back to origininal point, no matter how intellegent and educated a person is, they cannot diagnose themselves. They will not be able to see what an objective outsider can see.
Years later, following a head injury, a well respected neuropsychologist gave me hours of testing to evaluate any cognitive deficits as a result. I was not allowed to comment or ask any questions, only answer or perform the tasks that he requested. When I returned for the evaluation, he told me my memory was impaired (the memory that recalls things we learned in grade school, like how many continents?, name 3 things about Cleopatra?) Finally I asked him, if a person did not attend grade school, would this impact their ability to score on this area? He said absolutely, but that is not the case as who have a masters with a high GPA. This test is a "canned" test and does not allow for individual experiences.
Neither of these examples caused any harm. However, a person who is bi-polar but is diagnosed as depressed and given anti depressants will begin to cycle more rapidly as a result of the medications. For obvious reasons, this can cause further problems for them.
Back to origininal point, no matter how intellegent and educated a person is, they cannot diagnose themselves. They will not be able to see what an objective outsider can see.
Girl13, I agree with you, Im sure experience does make you better with patients. This kind of ignorance is what prevents treatment for so many, and they end up suffering in silence.
This is all very complex as I also believe in a holistic approach. I think that sometimes we try to seperate things for personal reasons. There is our conscious behaviors, and very unconscious, which I know I have been at least forced to entertain.
In the late 80's, during a calm time of my life, I got very sick. MS was suspected but never confirmed, herniated discs etc, but debilitating was Epstein Barr, Cfids, fibromyalgia following a car accident. Because I was working on Co-dependency stuff, went to therapy. Was told that I had symptoms of ptsd which I wont go into. I finally succumbed to illness and accepted-worked on a better quality of life. I not only healed physically, I also overcame all emotional/mental symptoms. Any symptoms were minimal-although I was very protective of my well being. I had set up an environment that was safe in every way. I avoided negative people, had no tolerence for drama or abuse, etc. During this time I became aware of trauma causing fibromyalgia and similiar illness. I was intrigued and studied much of this, so ptsd was not foreign to me. I was strong, capable independent. In 2005 I had a bad accident that brought about some bad health problems. Maybe that in of itself was a trigger. From this there was a domino effect. My safe world begin to collapse. I did many things and reacted in ways that I regret (which seemed out of my control at the time). Depression led to behavior, which caused anxiety and more depression. In 2009, my therapist who I had been seeing off and on told me that I have ptsd from childhood. She is likely correct..
One reason why some may want to deny the diagnosis is that it may feel like giving up control. It is admitting that something has happened to us which is out of our control. I had been telling myself that I reacted or did something because I am an A hole.
A new dsm will be out and there will be changes, so if someone benefits from this site, whatever they really have, bless them and I am glad that this site is here for all. I am not exceptional, and I had many productive functional years, that tells me that there is hope for all.
This is all very complex as I also believe in a holistic approach. I think that sometimes we try to seperate things for personal reasons. There is our conscious behaviors, and very unconscious, which I know I have been at least forced to entertain.
In the late 80's, during a calm time of my life, I got very sick. MS was suspected but never confirmed, herniated discs etc, but debilitating was Epstein Barr, Cfids, fibromyalgia following a car accident. Because I was working on Co-dependency stuff, went to therapy. Was told that I had symptoms of ptsd which I wont go into. I finally succumbed to illness and accepted-worked on a better quality of life. I not only healed physically, I also overcame all emotional/mental symptoms. Any symptoms were minimal-although I was very protective of my well being. I had set up an environment that was safe in every way. I avoided negative people, had no tolerence for drama or abuse, etc. During this time I became aware of trauma causing fibromyalgia and similiar illness. I was intrigued and studied much of this, so ptsd was not foreign to me. I was strong, capable independent. In 2005 I had a bad accident that brought about some bad health problems. Maybe that in of itself was a trigger. From this there was a domino effect. My safe world begin to collapse. I did many things and reacted in ways that I regret (which seemed out of my control at the time). Depression led to behavior, which caused anxiety and more depression. In 2009, my therapist who I had been seeing off and on told me that I have ptsd from childhood. She is likely correct..
One reason why some may want to deny the diagnosis is that it may feel like giving up control. It is admitting that something has happened to us which is out of our control. I had been telling myself that I reacted or did something because I am an A hole.
A new dsm will be out and there will be changes, so if someone benefits from this site, whatever they really have, bless them and I am glad that this site is here for all. I am not exceptional, and I had many productive functional years, that tells me that there is hope for all.
I self-diagnosed "Dissociative Disorder" to get me to a "Trauma Therapist" THROUGH this site...right or wrong...personally I don't care.
I was diagnosed with PTSD among other things 10 yrs ago but PTSD was not what was dealt with. I had been in touch with psyche docs ALL along and not one caught it when I tried to talk about the "sound" in my head. The Trauma Therapist did immediately...on this site I saw it right away which I had seen previously on another site that got me here.
****
I have been fighting this type of thinking for years. "Mental Illness" is NOT degrading or despicable or vile and although I have been treated rudely, like a freak, like a non-human, like I'm completely stupid, been refused medical care, and talked to like I'm trash, I believe this type of thinking needs to be changed person by person.
I know when things need "fixing" to find the RIGHT person the job and it's not me ;)
I was diagnosed with PTSD among other things 10 yrs ago but PTSD was not what was dealt with. I had been in touch with psyche docs ALL along and not one caught it when I tried to talk about the "sound" in my head. The Trauma Therapist did immediately...on this site I saw it right away which I had seen previously on another site that got me here.
****
I have been fighting this type of thinking for years. "Mental Illness" is NOT degrading or despicable or vile and although I have been treated rudely, like a freak, like a non-human, like I'm completely stupid, been refused medical care, and talked to like I'm trash, I believe this type of thinking needs to be changed person by person.
I know when things need "fixing" to find the RIGHT person the job and it's not me ;)
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