Sick Of The Term 'ptsd Is No Excuse'

[Nicolette]

I agree that PTSD symptoms do not a bad person make.

I don't think telling a Supporter that your opinion is for them to leave a relationship is saying that the Sufferer is a bad person either.

 

[JustBe]

I'm sorry, maybe I'm stepping in it here, but I feel that we are all responsible for our own behavior. I am a sufferer and I take full responsibility for my behavior whether I'm feeling well or whether I'm feeling very ill.

 

[Deleted member 1860]

I think that if you're sick of seeing that phrase, you should stay out of the supporter forums.

There are symptoms I cannot control such as insomnia, flashbacks, hyper vigilance, anxiety, etc; but none of these symptoms directly involve treating people badly. Yes, they may indirectly cause me to lash out, BUT, in every single instance there is a split second between the bad feeling and how I react to that bad feeling which may or may not involve hurting other people. A past therapist told me it is my responsibility to widen that gap so the feeling/action isn't seemingly simultaneous. Once I'm able to do that, I will be able to control my harmful behaviors. And, she was right. It's a hard thing to master, but it can be done.

My point is that we are in control even though it oftentimes feels like we aren't in that we CAN control our behavior with practice. So no, PTSD is not an excuse. Explanation, yes; excuse, no.

 

[Meadowsweet]

Here is what the original post states.

These are actual symptoms of the disorder according to NIMH. While there is certainly no excuse for bad behavior(a person must take responsibility for their actions no matter the underlying factors for the behavior), it is unfair to entirely dismiss what they are going through and label them as a bad person simply because we have PTSD and 'would never do that'. And I would go so far as to add that it is unwise to council supporters that they simply have a cruel and selfish partner because their partner has PTSD and is struggling with it in a way that we find distasteful.

I don't read this as insinuating that anyone who gives an opinion about a relationship is saying that a sufferer is a bad person. But nobody is perfect here, and it doesn't hurt for us (sufferers or supporters) to question our reactions, and whether we could make adjustments. That's part of therapy for most sufferers.

 

[Nicolette]

It is actual PTSD behavior and very difficult and painful to deal with.

Be it true, we come back to responsibility where, while it is a Sufferer's condition, they choose to seek support from their partner or project it upon them - which in my book are two vastly different actions. Which leads back to communication like Bilby outlined.

 

[Meadowsweet]

Which seems like a valid reason not to bother seeking support. Because to do so, and not be able to do it according to certain conditions, puts me at risk of being judged as 'bad'.

Bilby said that because the thread was moved. And it is by keeping these feelings away from supporters that enables people like me to deal with them. So when someone is isolating, sometimes it might be because they recognise that their supporter can't deal with it or understand it. So sometimes, that isolation or seeming coldness has a lot more love behind it than people get.

 

[HëllaBubz]

Which leads back to communication like Bilby outlined.

So sometimes, that isolation or seeming coldness has a lot more love behind it than people get.

The only way my partner and I have kept sane is by constant communication and checking in with the other person. He often doesn't understand why I'm hiding upstairs in bed (isolating) or snappy at him when he complains about things that I know are my fault.

Scenario 1.

Him: "Come downstairs and spend some time with me, you're always in bed."
Me: "No, you come up here or shut the door and f*ck off."
Him: "Why, what the f*ck did I do?"
Me: "I've had a really shitty night's sleep, and the nightmares were really bad."
Him: knowing that it must be bad if I'm still affected after 14 hours; "What were they about this time?"
Me: "I dreamt that X happened, and Y and Z were there too."

Other half now knows that I'm struggling to deal with anything, and so want the only safe, comfortable place away from noise (his beloved Star Trek), and not trying to ignore him.
I'll come spend a bit of time downstairs later, or he'll come up so we get some time together.
I'll end up feeling bad, and apologize for being a rude asshole in a bit, once I've managed to swallow my pride.

we come back to responsibility where, while it is a Sufferer's condition, they choose to seek support from their partner or project it upon them

Scenario 2.

Him: Seeing new dishes when coming home... "Babe, why the f*ck can't you just rinse your plate when you're done?"
Me: Ahhhhh shit. "I was too tired to do them, my brain isn't with it."
Him: Smelling bullshit..."Bullshit, it only takes a few seconds, don't be f*cking lazy and just rinse one."
Me: Now grouchy from being called out, and sensitive to confrontation: "f*ck off, sometimes I'm too wrecked to do it."
Him: "Yes, but only one won't hurt, just f*cking try, you're looking fine today!"
Me: "I am trying!"
Him: "Bullshit!"
Me: grouches and goes and washes dish. I know full well I was a lazy f*ck and was hiding behind excuses that didn't exist that day.

it doesn't hurt for us (sufferers or supporters) to question our reactions, and whether we could make adjustments.

Scenario 3.

Him: "Coming to MIL's for dinner?"
Me: "Yeeeesssss..."
Him: laughs. stops laughing. "My brother is going to be there, are you going to be ok?"
Me: "Yes, but I've been feeling pretty vulnerable at the moment, please step in if he's being a prick?"
Him: "Yeah, but you and I have different versions of 'being a prick'.
Me: "He IS the definition of 'a prick'. "
Him: "Why do you always have to pick on my family, they are the ones that are fine, not you!"

Me: super f*cked off: "What exactly do you mean by that?"
Him: "Well you're the one with social interaction issues....."
Me: "And? I don't make him try to pick on me, pick on my religion, try to get a rise out of me, make nasty comments about people on benefits, or dig for information he can use against me later, or ask leading questions to make me look like a jobless, uneducated loser or......."
Him: "..........What do you want me to do?"
Me: "You know when he's being a prick.....tell him to f*ck off like you do when he decides to start on you."
Him: "I suppose. You do have interaction issues though."

Me: "Are you trying to start shit? I can't have interaction issues if I refuse to interact with him!"
Him: "But you have to interact with him!"
Me: "No, I don't! Anything and everything that I say is used against me later, I'm better off looking sullen and keeping my mouth shut than dealing with the asshole later. My heartrate and anxiety goes through the roof a few days before I have to deal with him, you should be pleased I've let him live!"
Him: ".........I didn't know that. I'm sorry, I've been trying to do damage control, but it's done more harm than good, as you know. But I'll keep an eye out."
Me: "Please do.....he's super sneaky, and half the jabs you miss because he waits until you aren't listening."
Him: "Ok, but do me a favour, you really ARE sensitive, more than usual, and he will pick on that. Try to ignore him, and let me deal with him. If he gets really out of hand, I'll let you do your thing and rip a chunk off him."
Me: grumbles....."argh......fine."

I don't know if I'm making sense here, but for me the above scenarios, which HAVE happened in the past, are indicative to me of several things.

1. Communication
2. Responsibility
3. Flexibility

You have to have all 3, or be willing to try again in a little, and state as much, or the supporter is going to go mad.

I had some things of my own that I really needed to discuss with my sufferer and every time I tried, I was told that it would "have to wait".

I can't be denied of certain things in my relationship for an indefinite period of time, or to be made feel that my issues aren't important, because they are.

Case and Point.

It's really easy as a sufferer to become wrapped up in our suffering, and let it be projected rather than contained and worked on. When my supporter reaches breaking point I concede that I have let it go too long, but if he DOES want to talk, it has to be broken down into small bits that I can work on, otherwise it really will "have to wait".

The dishes scenario is a really mild example of how we hide behind excuses and allow parts of our personality be vindicated by our symptoms, rather than owning it and admitting that, like me, I really was a -insert appropriate term-.
The confrontation that blows up into an argument when we dig in our heels rather than admit a fault is purely the sufferer's initiation.

I don't think telling a Supporter that your opinion is for them to leave a relationship is saying that the Sufferer is a bad person either.

It is possible to label a behaviour without labelling a person as a whole, and that is what I believe is happening.

And I would go so far as to add that it is unwise to council supporters that they simply have a cruel and selfish partner because their partner has PTSD and is struggling with it in a way that we find distasteful.

As a sufferer, you would know that people often trigger us unintentionally; regardless of the intentions, the effects are there and hurt.
I would be very interested to see how many posts contain content to the effect of "what they are doing is X" VS "he/she is X", as there is a MASSIVE difference between the 2.

What someone does and who someone is, are completely different.
If I am being a yelling, abusive, intolerant asshole due to (insert reason here), then that doesn't MAKE me those things as a person, but it DOES mean that I am forcing someone to experience those things, which is entirely unacceptable, and my supporter has every right to question me, or distance himself from me to avoid hurt to himself.
We often talk about knowing where our boundaries are, and expecting others to follow them, but regardless of intentions on the sufferer's part, the supporter has their own boundaries, and has every right to walk away from something that is unhealthy.

Regardless of why something bad is happening, no one should stay if they are getting hurt. That is called being a martyr, and I'm sure many of us have been hurt by doing that.

PTSD is only an excuse when it is NOT used as an excuse.

Despite everything I've said above, I think it's important that we establish what you are trying to say.
Because as others have pointed out, you are saying what it is NOT, not what it IS.

 

[Loveneverfails]

Nicolette, as for the 'every' word usage in my posts, I'm not sure why that is being used as an argument. Obviously it's not every time. But it is very frequent. But this feels like we're arguing semantics now looking for a reason to somehow make my opinion wrong. So I concede the use of the word 'every' and would if I could change it to 'often' or 'frequent'. (in reference to the quote below)

In times of physical danger and other forms of abuse, it is certainly appropriate to advice them to leave, but it's becoming more and more common place to see it in cases of typical PTSD characteristics. Just as the PTSD sufferer must take responsibility for their actions against their supporter, we need to take responsibility for the advice we're giving. Telling every supporter who posts that their sufferer isn't meeting their needs that they're with a bad partner is in all likelihood not true and unintentionally(I hope) playing games with other peoples lives.

From the start my words have been misconstrued on this topic as me somehow accusing supporters or entirely excusing sufferers. I've accused supporters of absolutely nothing. Nor have I told them to just put up with things as they are. I have not told anyone to accept abuse. I have however stated(2nd paragraph of my first post) that all people must be held accountable for their actions.

While there is certainly no excuse for bad behavior(a person must take responsibility for their actions no matter the underlying factors for the behavior) it is unfair to entirely dismiss what they are going through and label them as a bad person simply because we have PTSD and 'would never do that'

Honestly it feels like we're searching for a reason to give me a reprimand or ban me for stating an opinion that had nothing to do with insulting a supporter and was actually said IN SUPPORT of their situation. Telling a supporter their partner must always have had those toxic personality traits for having PTSD typical behaviors, or telling them maybe they should leave(and it is most prevalent I think, in the introductions forum) is again, probably not true at least half of the time in non abusive situations and not helpful. I can't quote the posts I don't think as it would be transferring information from one place in the forum to another nor do I have the time at the moment but if you would like me to prepare links this weekend to present, I certainly can try to find time to do so.

I don't think telling a Supporter that your opinion is for them to leave a relationship is saying that the Sufferer is a bad person either.

No, it isn't, but that isn't what I'm speaking of when I say that. I'm talking about when people are saying that the sufferer must always have had those behaviors because the poster has ptsd too and would never act that way. This isn't true in my view, as everyone deals with ptsd in a unique way and while it may not be the same as what we've experienced, it is still a ptsd typical behavior and therefore compounded by the disorder, and not necessarily the sufferers personality. But I will repeat myself again that this doesn't mean they aren't held responsible for it. But to an extent I wonder, because having a mental illness does mean that at some level the person is physically incapable of controlling themselves.

That was a lot of questions, I hope I addressed them all.

 

[Loveneverfails]

Because as others have pointed out, you are saying what it is NOT, not what it IS.

I'm sorry, I'm really trying to understand what you're saying here and it is not computing in my brain. Are you asking me to define what PTSD IS an excuse for?

If so, then I would have to say that while every person is absolutely 100% responsible for their own actions, at some point we have to understand that having a mental illness means they aren't going to be entirely in control of those actions. So while we should absolutely expect them to apologize and really try to improve and seek out treatment, we have to understand that those actions are caused by a disorder and that in reality it is likely they will always have behaviors that are directly related to the illness. They may become aware of them, but a common trait in mental illness is that many times they aren't. That doesn't mean they are unwilling to validate the supporters emotions and needs, it means that in some cases, they may not be capable just yet(or at all, which is sad). But we don't know which it is of course, without the sufferer seeking treatment, and treatment often takes a long time to get results.

PTSD is only an excuse when it is NOT used as an excuse.

I really like that. No sufferer should use PTSD as an excuse, but we should be aware and sympathetic toward other sufferers when they're caught in the middle of the disorder and not yet able to control their symptoms.

What really set me off on this after months of seeing the term across the forum is there was a combat PTSD supporter who was really worried about her sufferer. He was exhibiting classic PTSD behaviors like avoidance, isolation, emotional unavailability, depression and I think drinking(I'll have to go digging to find the post) and some people were explaining that PTSD does not make a person unwilling to connect emotionally or to talk about the sufferers deteriorating mental health. I have to say that in my experience and from what I've read, it really does. She was also advised that he would likely never meet her needs if he wasn't now and another poster said that she should consider leaving him. The supporter did not post again and it felt to me like she'd been run off by the lack of actual support for her situation.

I hope that clarifies at least a little.

 

[HëllaBubz]

So while we should absolutely expect them to apologize and really try to improve and seek out treatment

That doesn't mean they are unwilling to validate the supporters emotions and needs, it means that in some cases, they may not be capable just yet(or at all, which is sad).

And I think you are bang on the mark here, I couldn't have said it better myself! (No, really, my brain is fried today! :p)

an opinion that had nothing to do with insulting a supporter and was actually said IN SUPPORT of their situation.

Yes, but now that we have a context, it makes it much easier to respond to. I think I can honestly say that it was/is obvious to the other readers of the thread that something had flagged with you, but until we knew what that was, it was hard to offer a validated and current opinion.

What really set me off on this after months of seeing the term across the forum is there was a

.........
Which is what we have here.

The supporter did not post again and it felt to me like she'd been run off by the lack of actual support for her situation.

Bingo. I needed the context, because there are so many scenarios on this forum. Based on what you have said the responses were to the posted question, I'm horrified.

Are you asking me to define what PTSD IS an excuse for?

I think I was trying to ask WHAT exactly had brought about your response that led to you posting......I told you my brain was fried!

 

[Loveneverfails]

I think I would also like to use myself as an example of what is typical PTSD behavior:

I don't beat my kids. I was severely 'spanked' with a shoe on my bare bottom as a child so even swatting a childs bottom is a trigger for me and although my husband did it, I had to stop very soon into it. But I was a yeller. For a very long time I wasn't even aware I was doing it, I had to get to a level where it was obvious to me and I'm in no way proud of that. Yelling is not okay. Especially at children. Everyone does it according to various psychologists, but it still isn't okay in my opinion. So I changed it(which took work and time to do). But for a long time I had no idea I had this problem because PTSD sufferers often have outburts of anger and having a mental illness means you aren't always aware of your actions or their impact on those around you.

"PTSD is no excuse" for yelling at my kids, but yelling and losing my temper is part of my disorder and so it is understandable. Of course in spite of my disorder it is my responsibility to change behaviors that are not healthy as I become aware of them. But I have to be aware of them. That takes time and not being aware does not make a sufferer bad, unkind or selfish.

 

[rightkindofme]

So, I remember a string of women who asked for help in fairly fledgling relationships (under a year) where women wanted assurances that things would change in the future and I know I repeatedly said to get out if you expect change.

If you can't handle a relationship with the person as-they-are then you should leave. It is that simple. If you need someone to change then you shouldn't be in a relationship with them because you can't control if they will or not. Especially when you are dealing with a potentially life-long psychological disorder.

If that makes me sound mean I can live with that.

Avoidance is a classic symptom but it also removes most of the levels of a relationship. Isolation is a classic symptom, etc. etc. etc.

I think that people need to be selfish. I broke off a serious live-in relationship with someone with severe PTSD because I can not have someone who behaves like that living with my children. I have PTSD. My symptoms are terrible some days. I have small children and it is not ok for me to lay in bed all day no matter what emotions I am having. This was something that my partner could not push through. She would say she was the one responsible for the kids then she would check out.

I'm sorry but I don't care what happened to you in the past my children require care *today*. Your issues are less important than their needs *today*. Everyone with PTSD has different capabilities of managing their illness. I have had PTSD for most of my life. It doesn't matter that I have extreme flashbacks, body memories, etc of being tortured I can put a smile on my face, take a deep breath and appear to all the world like I am fine. It is a game I had to learn to play. I hate it and I feel like shit a lot of the time. I am totally going to die of organ failure fairly young in life from stress.

People with PTSD need to cop to their limits more than they do. They need to say, "I am not capable of ____" or "I need x time off because my body needs to decompress." Just disappearing isn't ok. Having the desire to isolate, avoid or drink is totally reasonable. What do you do with that desire?

My actions are what matter. I have to show up every day and not be moody. I chose being a parent specifically because I want to learn how to be a good parent. I want to see what one looks like. It is my daily gauntlet to run.

It doesn't matter what is happening inside my brain it matters what is happening with my voice and my hands and my facial expressions. I want relationships so bad I shake with wanting them. If I want to have them I have to earn them by being good enough. It is terrible and hard.

I feel bad for people who have not yet managed to learn how to control any of their symptoms. I want to support such people in ways that are appropriate for my life. I cannot let them drown me with them. I made it so my life is not just about me any more. I have to be responsible for my kids for the next fifteen years. If I want them to talk to me after that I had better be a good enough person that they want to keep knowing me.

I don't think I get to be mean to my kids or neglect them and then say, "Oh but poor me I had a bad childhood so it's not my fault." Psh. Whatever.

I am impressed by what some supporters here talk about accepting from their partners. My husband would not stay for some of the stuff I read about. He is too selfish. I'm actually ok with that. I'm glad that he has needs that he won't bend on. It keeps me motivated to work on my stuff.

All of this is not to say that I'm perfect in managing my symptoms. I'm not. But I have to negotiate my managing of them all the time. I have to say, "Wow my head is in a different place right now and I am having a hard time doing what we are doing. I need to leave the room. What can I do to set you up while I am gone?"

Knowing that my children have never done a gosh darned thing to me and knowing that I absolutely owe them a decent upbringing has been a glass of cold water to the face. It has changed everything about my life. I have much more control now. I have no choice.

TL;DR Which is to say that I think that sometimes people with PTSD will have symptoms that are as severe as their life will allow. If a supporter doesn't like what is being dished out and wants something different the supporter can hope and pray or leave. Those are the options. I'm frank about this because I don't see a point in hanging out in a relationship that doesn't work for you. Move on and find someone who is a better fit.

There are too many other people out there to try dating. Why stay with a bad fit?