Sick Of The Term 'ptsd Is No Excuse'

[mamachick]

Being married to a passive aggressive man for 27 years, I can tell you that I understand his fear of vulnerability and being dependent is rooted in his upbringing and a condition of his own. However, I was never a need or dependent kind of wife, but withholding attention, companionship, affection, sex, is a form of abuse. I began to think that I expected too much. When you have not had a date with your husband in 5 years, its neglect. It does not require the other adult is vulnerable such as elderly or disabled.

Any expression of desire for change was met with defensive responses such as "one of us have to work". This is common passive aggressive behavior. Forgetting marriage counseling appointments, making oneself unavailable constantly, then making excuses and never taking responsibility. By most standards, the spouse would feel abandoned. When the spouse wants a divorce, it is clear that they have an easier time with seperation because they know that "they have already been left".

 

[Abstract]

Hi Nicolette,

I agree that it can be extremely selfish even if the person is thinking that they are protecting their loved one (say if they know they are explosive) or that they feel toxic and want to protect others from them. And if someone has abandonment issues or co-dependency it must be be very painful. Personally I cannot imagine why anyone would do it! But there you go.

I think what people speak of anecdotally sometimes and what is more factually based are two different things. I do think the same thinking would mean it potentially would be considered abusive to keep contacting a PTSD sufferer if they are saying they need space. But neither is abusive.

If the person continued contacting a sufferer who said it was badly affecting them and they needed space and the person was desperate for reassurance that they were still loved or that they were convinced that they could help then it may be selfish or deluded but it wouldn't be abuse. Hurt feelings and emotional pain doesn't necessarily equal abuse.

If you have the name of the psychologist I would be interested. I am always open to knew information.

 

[Abstract]

but withholding attention, companionship, affection, sex, is a form of abuse.

Brat, that is classic emotional abuse in a relationship. He was using these to control you and manipulate you and to wield power. I don't agree with the power criteria from that site. I think we should discard that example.

Have you used isolating in the same way?

 

[Nicolette]

I was just reading this article, [DLMURL]http://www.helpguide.org/mental/domestic_violence_abuse_types_signs_causes_effects.htm[/DLMURL], more towards the bottom half and I think, if you took a normal person, and they acted out some of the PTSD symptoms it would be considered abusive, controlling or negligent behaviour.

I believe the question is how does PTSD fit into the scope of what is defined as abuse, and where do the lines grey or drop away due to the illness. What additional allowances does PTSD warrant within reason?!

 

[Abstract]

I personally think that there should be no difference in what is considered abusive when it is someone who has PTSD. Unless done in a flashback with no awareness. Yes, there are some underlying things that probably fuel the abuse but I suspect there usually is when it comes to abuse and it doesn't change the end product or the effect on others.

This is a quote from that article, "The aim of emotional abuse is to chip away at your feelings of self-worth and independence."

I have only glimpsed through briefly but I agree with everything in that article. And I see nothing that relates to what I suspect is the majority of true PTSD isolating behaviour. Maybe you could quote the relevant parts for me Nicolette as I may be missing it.

I personally do not believe I do anything that is referred to in that article. I have however, many times been in relationships where I am at the receiving end.

 

[mamachick]

No, I havent used isolation in the same way, it is just out of my nature. However, passive aggressive people often are unaware of their pent up anger and that they are actually doing what they do. I am not convinced that it is intentional, it his like it is his nature. Maybe it is deliberate. My understanding is that growing up he was unable to safely express emotions, particularly anger. So they stuff it and feel powerless and their biggest fear is vulnerability(cant be in intimate relationship without ) and becoming dependent on another person. They fear that if you really knew me, you would not love me. So they sabatoge the relationship. He truly seems to have no insight into this.

From a perspective of investing many years in hoping for change and seeing the good in this man, I feel like I have been abused. So my personal opinion is that neglect is a form of abuse in partner relationships. But before making that judgement, it is important to weigh the situation. If one partner has attachment issues and is over sensative and needy and the other provides reasonable participation, committment, attention, affection, etc.-then I would not call it abuse. Of course reasonable is a subjective term and so each situation would need to be weighed. Having time for self, occassionally shutting the other out , etc needs weighed on a case by case basis in my opinion.

After accepting the fact that I was married to a passive aggressive, I began filling my needs outside the marriage-work, school, concerts and plays with friends, the gym-so I did check out after 12 or so years. I accepted that this is all it will ever be.

 

[Abstract]

Hi Brat,
If I remember correctly I believe you said you are or were co-dependent. If you were married to someone emotionally repressed and unavailable and I have no doubt you would be left feeling you were emotionally abused. Especially if you have had a history of childhood neglect. Regardless of if it was so or not. I certainly would. I don't say that to undermine your feelings at all as I think they are legitimate regardless. I certainly could not cope on the receiving end. Our feelings and someone intent are sometimes two separate things.

When people raise their voices at me I sometimes feel I am almost being assaulted when it is actually acceptable behaviour. Because of my own past.

I think there are ways to tell if someones withdrawal is passive aggressive or not and there were probably many indications of it if that was the case. And it quite possibly was the case.

My isolation is directly linked to symptoms.

 

[Meadowsweet]

A renowned Australian PTSD psychiatrist said a Sufferer who takes off or completely isolates within a relationship is abusive, as while the Sufferer is trying to manage themselves, they are still aware of the impact on their partner (causing them worry, anxiety, even a sense of abandonment)- so the 'selfishness' of PTSD 'survival' can be abusive to others in his professional opinion..... He went on to say that if the 'Supporter' had say, abandonment issues then it would be even more likely to be abusive as the 'Sufferer' knows the consequence of their actions and the pain in causes the other.

Do you have a link to this psychiatrist's work please.

 

[Abstract]

Brat, one of the real causes of damage is if we are not able to consider our own needs and remove ourselves from something that is damaging to us. And there are always good reasons for that.

I have done that numerous times. Been in environments both abusive or bullying or not and not left. I have worked hard to change that. Sometimes it wasn't that the person was abusive but that it was damaging to me.

I have a friend who is married to a very emotionally and physically repressed man and they even have children. She is unbelievably together and self confident and likes her own space and it does not phase her at all. Occasionally she gets really fed up but generally is fine. He isn't passive aggressive with it and it is not isolating PTSD behaviour. He was just brought up by very distant parents and went to boarding school his whole life.

Children can't leave emotionally or physically neglectful environments. It is a survival risk for them as children need affection, physical provisions and medical care to thrive and survive. So do adults but we can remove ourselves.

Removing myself when appropriate has been a very hard and long journey.

 

[mamachick]

Actually, I married my husband in 86. Shortly after, I became very involved in couseling and learning about co-dependency. My husband was like a flat line emotionally. As you know, being co-dependent can take on many forms, I was very independent and had trouble asking for what I needed, but did for others and avoided conflict. He was also a conflict avoider. I did this for personal growth but as time passed and I became healthier, I began asking for what I needed. It was not received well. I do have a history of childhood neglect, but that does not negate him having very rigid boundaries, like sex only on Saturday and without my initiation, months passed.

There were also strong disregard for my needs. I had cfids and fibromyalgia and he took calls from work (by choice) all night long which interupted my sleep horribly and I had a sleep disorder and children to care for in the morning. My grandaughter died of SiDS and he did not take time from work. (his step grandaughter) I had to buy something to bury her in alone and make all funeral arrangements. I could go on, but the point is that these are times when it is expected that your partner show regard for your well being-he did not.

Then there is the everyday life style. Any activity that I mentioned for the two of us to do-he shot down. Our daughters never saw any sign of affection, and also never heard an arguement until the end. If we tried to curl up and watch a movie, he would get up and straighten a picture on the wall, then again to change the thermostat, and again and again until I would prefer to not keep having to move.

About 10 yrs into the marriage we went to counseling. He forgot 2 appointments and was a no show. During the 4 that we did attend, the therapist said that he is passive aggressive and that he will never give you what you want or need.

Admittedly, I am a very affectionate and caring person. So I could say some is preference. However, not long ago our daughter was mad at me and decided to stop pmt on a check. He knew about it and when I told him what I thought that she did, he yelled at me and said-your crazy, you dont trust anyone, not even your own daughter.

I am in no way defending his behavior, but it is a life of conditioning that he has got to where he is. It can be as disrupting as a partner with ptsd I am sure. There are things that would be considered abusive in a partner relationship (not showing up for a childs birth, locking you out of house repeatedly-accident of course). So yes, I find neglect and lack of regard can be abusive behavior, but that is only my opinion. Dealing with a pass-aggressive leaves you feeling angry and guilty at the same time-and that is psychological abuse.

Again, I was very strong and had worked through co-d issues, so I learned to accept if after marriage counseling and discovering that this is as good as it will get-for awhile. When we seperated, there was a meanness that came out that was more along the lines of gaslighting. So yes, I had a childhood of neglect, but we often chose people to re-enact our experience. If neglect in childhood is considered abuse, I do think the same applies in adulthood only the expectations are different, as we do not need to be fed, bathed, educated, etc.

I also can see both sides to this and why some would think that it is not a form of abuse.

 

[mamachick]

Abstract I also think you are right on, that sometimes something is not good for us but it is not abusive. I can also think of many situations.

 

[Barberian]

I wrote up a BIG post yesterday only to have it disappear into the ether of the internet because the site was down for upgrade when I hit post. I don't have it in me to try and rewrite it. I will paraphrase a few points I made. (EDIT: this post turned out bigger than I had anticipated).

1. For me, isolating is not abuse, it's survival. It would be abusive TO ME, if I forced myself to socialize when I NEEDED to isolate. Abuse is when you harm someone. Neglect is when you avoid interacting with someone. Abuse and neglect are two VERY different behaviors.

2. This crp about "PTSD is not an excuse", is bull. I avoided posting about it when a thread came up in the supporters section because I'm a sufferer, and respect the different communities here on the forum. I do occasionally post in the supporters section when I can offer support for the thread or a member in the thread. I don't look in the supporters section, but do see threads when they come up in the "what's new?" section of the forum. This thread is out in the open for anybody to post, so I do so now.

Rage, avoidance/isolation, depression.

I have NO CONTROL over my behavior or actions when I am in a rage. Two things can put me in a rage response. Fight, or flight response to an event. If something makes me angry, I can just keep uncontrollably escalating into a rage response. This is something I have no control over, it just simply happens and I'm along for the ride. I have no idea how I will react to something until I am in the process of reacting. Feeling cornered or trapped by a situation, or location can put me in a rage response too. So... I isolate to avoid uncontrolled situations I may turn into a raging homicidal idiot. It could be a major incident most people would rage for, or it could be a dust bunny that I couldn't wrangle into a dust pan... I never know until it's happening. Yes... it could be that trivial.

Avoidance and/or isolation - If I am overwhelmed by the world, I isolate. I can feel overwhelmed by anxiety and/or depression. If I were to push myself out into the world, or around others (my wife) when I am in danger of being overwhelmed by the world, I directly expose her to the chance that I may lose control and go into a rage. So I ask, which is better, abuse or neglect. If I push myself out and go into a rage and hurt her or kill her, I'm a VERY terrible man. If I isolate I'm just a bad man who is neglecting her. I love her very much (most of the time), and don't want to hurt her. So I ask.... Am I a bad man for wanting to protect her from possible harm?

PTSD can be very debilitating. I have been working very hard for several years to try and recover as much as I can from this terrible burden. I have no idea how close to "normal" I will ever make it, but it is a struggle I work with almost every day. My brain is cross wired, and doesn't respond well at times. 1+1 does not always = 2. I am broken, and to expect me to behave "Normally" at all times is BULLSHlT!

As for a lot of the other things that people do - cheating, lying, speeding, gossiping, ego tripping, gardening, eating, breathing, etc. No. I don't believe PTSD is an excuse for that kind of behavior. Humans will be humans. To use the term "PTSD is not an excuse for ______ as a blanket statement as has been used here (isolation comes to mind) is offensive to me.

I will not discuss a point by point critique of my post. If you have issues with it, post away if you wish, but I won't be responding or defending it. It is, what it is, a sufferers point of view.