Struggling With Radical Acceptance

[user27357]

In my opinion, Marsha wants to move us away from being fully human, with all of our different shades of emotions, to being more machine-like. To just take what happened and move on. It's a warped teaching and I think it does great damage to many people.
Forgiveness is far more powerful.

After reading more and looking at other threads on other forums, I am starting to see some value in this, if only in removing oneself from the anger enough to allow some other stages of grief to take their turns and get the healing back on the path.

And I think you may have hit my nail on the head when you mention forgiveness. I really have a hard time with that one. Misdemeanor meanness is nothing to me, but the repeat felons in my life are beyond forgiveness and I will probably always be angry when I think of them and the things they did. Unfortunately they are my parents and I am reminded often. They affected my work relationships and I get reminded of it often. They moved to my county before the last horrible thing happened and I get reminded of that fact often also. Forgiveness for them comes when they die, or when I die, but not while I am alive with a functioning memory. As a parent myself I can't find forgiveness for the people that dare to call themselves my parents.

The closest I might get to that holy grail of forgiveness for them just might be Radical acceptance, someday.

It is not without value.

 

[Eleanor]

why is it OK to be concerned about her dinner arrival but not about alleviating my own fears and being able to eat calmly and in peace if I will be eating alone?

I think both are important. And it is possible to go overboard with the fear thing. If it is every ten minutes, that's too much, I think. If you talked to her an hour ago, and she was ok and isn't expected for another hour, doesn't seem like you need to call. If she was due three hours ago... I'd sure call, and at hour four I'd start trying to track her down. So it is also possible NOT to go overboard with the fear thing. When I was dating my friends had a rule about me calling, and if I didn't in a certain amount of time... they were gonna come looking. Simple as that. Not unreasonable I think.

 

[scout86]

I'd like to throw one more thought out there on the being available for phone calls topic. I don't know you're wife, obviously, and this may not be "her" at all. What you're talking about sounds similar to what I ran into both with my ex-husband and an ex-bf. (And, I'm sure it was at least a small part of the reason they are both "ex's")

It turns out that I, according to my T, at the very least have "ADHDish tendencies". When I'm doing something, I can be intensely focused on what I'm doing, to the exclusion of all else, for hours. When I finish that, I tend to go off, as my T says, in pursuit of the next shiny object. At some point, it will occur to me that I'd thought I'd be home 3 hours ago....... I don't do that on purpose! I don't do it because I don't care about the person waiting at home. I don't even do it, believe it or not, because I'm rude and inconsiderate. I do it because that's the way my brain's wired. I do my best NOT to do it. Sometimes I manage pretty well, sometimes not. Both of those ex's were very much "the trains must run on time" kinds of people. I'm more of a "There are TRAIN?!" kind of person. I don't totally get how someone can believe that a schedule is anything more than a suggestion or a hope, but I realize that others see it differently. Now that I know about the ADHD thing, I at least have a plausible explanation. If I ever get in another relationship, maybe I can at least convince the guy that I'm not TRYING to upset him! (And, maybe not.)

Is it at all possible that your wife just has a different way of operating such that she simply can't keep track of this stuff consistently? I said before that I thought maybe she should stop making those promises, if she really can't keep them. What about that? Is she making the promises, knowing she CAN keep them and then choosing not to? Or is she making them, wishing she could keep them, hoping she could keep them, and being somewhat in denial about the odds of actually keeping them? (I did that in both the relationships I mentioned. And, I did it because, in both cases, not being about to "make the trains run on time" was considered totally unacceptable by my partner.) What if she were to say to you, "Honey, I love you and I know you worry about me. I will do my best to keep my phone handy for when you call to check in but, you know how I am, I may forget where I put the phone."? How would you feel about that? Would it be ok with you if she just admitted that she isn't able to meet your expectations? Is there some sort of compromise that would give you the reassurance you want but be workable for her?

 

[user27357]

@scout86

We have been around and around on this one, believe me. The phones problem was just an example, there are so many over so much time, I don't get through many days without the reminder that what is promised may not be what is done. This affects our finances, our plans, our friendships with other couples, she has no contact with her family, etc. Forgotten promises and plans have stripped her of her integrity with many, not just me.

But especially me. And I do make adjustments, believe me.

 

[ghotiff]

I didn't want to post earlier because I didn't want to derail the thread from its initial radical acceptance question.

I read once that if your partner throws their wet towel on the bathroom floor every day then you have two options 1) try and change them (not likely to happen, because if it's a problem then you would have already tried to change them and failed) 2) accept that they are not going to change and either divorce because it's a deal breaker or stay and accept that you will have to hang up their wet towel every day. But...importantly you accept the wet towel as a small price to pay for a good relationship overall.

Some peoples personalities don't keep "promises". I think these people are well meaning with good intent, just not good at thinking forward about how to keep that promise and so they get there and they forget or it's too hard so they don't do it. Usually these people are highly adaptable and can handle change very well (I have a few friends like this). I have learnt to never make scheduled plans with them (they just don't work and I end up feeling let down) instead I plan to see then Saturday week in my own mind (I like to know what's ahead), but I only tell/ask them on that Saturday morning. This seems to work best for me (and them).

Hope that helps somehow.

 

[scout86]

I guess what I was asking is, has she considered that this is a problem and looked into the nature of the problem? Or doesn't she think it's a problem?

When I was married to my ex, I had NO idea that I might have ADHD. Now that I've talked it over quite a bit with my T, I can see why he brought it up, and I can see where it might be true. It explains a lot, that's for sure. My T says that I've managed to construct my life in such a way that it minimizes the problems. (As long as I'm not in a relationship with one of those "the trains MUST run on time" folks anyway.) It still causes me problems, but it's causing me less problems all the time because now I'm aware of it and can figure out ways to compensate.

I generally keep promises and keeping promises is very important to me. I may, sometimes, FORGET that I made a promise. I work at making sure that doesn't happen. When it does, it's because my brain went "Hey, look at THAT!" when it should have been keeping track of the promise. It's not because the promise wasn't important to me, or because promises in general aren't important to me. far from it.

The other thing I've done is learned my limitations, so I know what promises to make. For example, if I get a phone call when I'm driving, I tell the caller, "I may not remember to call you back. It's not that I don't think it's important, it's the way my brain works, or doesn't. If you don't hear from me by tomorrow, call me back, or better yet, send an email. When I check my email and SEE yours, I'll remember to get back to you." I'm training my clients, as much as possible, to email to make appointments, because then I have less trouble getting back to them. I COULD promise to call them back, but that would be a really bad idea, because I remember that kind of stuff poorly. NOT because it isn't important or because I don't care, but because my brain went, "Hey, check this out!" at the wrong time.

When I was married to my ex, I honestly think that knowing this wouldn't have mattered. He never would have accepted that my brain works differently and that it's ok. That's where I think I'm applying "radical acceptance" to the situation. I accept that this is the way my brain works. I don't have to like it, but I accept it. Then I go on to find ways to deal with it. In a relationship, for things to work, my partner would also have to accept that this is the way my brain works. Then he would have to decide whether he could live with that or not and behave accordingly. I might have to accept that it's a deal breaker for him. All of that is done in a non-judgmental way. I'm not a bad person, I'm just a person with a brain that functions in a particular way that is sometimes inconvenient. He is not a bad guy because he doesn't want to deal with it. He's just a guy who doesn't want to deal with it.

Now, I also accept that I was sexually abused when I was little. I happen to believe that kind of thing is "wrong" and I accept that that is my belief, as well as the fact that it happened. The perp is an evil bastard who may have issues of his own. I accept that. (And I realize that I may have wandered off the track of what's technically considered ok in RA.) I accept that he's an evil bastard and don't feel compelled to try to change him or explain him, and I don't rant and rave about the injustice of it all, because there's no real point to that. I accept that it "wasn't fair". I might kill him if I had the opportunity. I also accept that and don't pass the judgement that such thoughts make ME evil. That's how I feel, it just "IS".

 

[ghotiff]

Really great post @scout86

 

[user27357]

RA doesn't work on the big stuff for me. Bath towel, sure, total indifferance and an ongoing lack of concern for others expectations, no.

Another hypothetical:

what if you park your car on the street and it is vandalized? RA says, car was vandalized, get an estimate, fix it.

It happens again. RA says, car vandalized, estimate, fix, park on the next block.

Again. Ra says, vandalized, estimate, fix, park elsewhere, get an alarm

Again. This time the alarm went off and the perpetrator is busted, it's the next door neighbors kid who hates you since you gave his mom some hand me down clothes from your sisters kid when he was 4 and his mom made him wear them and he hated them. Now he hates you. RA says, vandalized, estimate, fix, appear at his hearing and accept the court ordered apology.

All better. This RA works, I never got angry, the car is fixed, neighbor problem sorted out, body shop guy in Maui.

It happens again.

Ra says sell the car? Move? drive it vandalized? Whatever you do don't think the neighbors are bad, don't wonder why it happens to you every time, never stop giving out hand me down clothes to the neighbor kids moms, and keep parking on the street.

it just doesn't work in the big, repetitive, damaging situations.

When my wife disregards my concerns and her own promises because she doesn't care enough to do otherwise, it is damaging to me.

 

[joeylittle]

All better. This RA works, I never got angry, the car is fixed, neighbor problem sorted out, body shop guy in Maui.
It happens again.

I love this example. And I think it fits your situation, actually. At the point where it happens again, as in your analogy, after the absolutely logical end of the road - well, then you would use RA maybe in the moment to accept that it is unbelievably shitty, what just happened. But then, you move on to making a choice or a change. Either choose to continue parking where you are and taking what comes - but I don't think radical acceptance has anything to do with this, I think at this point it is setting yourself up for pain - OR make a good effort to change the situation; pay for a spot in a locked garage, or stop having a car, or decide you don't want to live in this town anymore.

IN other words, there is always a point where you've navigated your extreme emotional response, and now it is time to make a choice about your actions, according to your own core values.

 

[scout86]

When my wife disregards my concerns and her own promises because she doesn't care enough to do otherwise, it is damaging to me

It would certainly be hurtful if she did that. No doubt about it! What is your evidence that she's disregarding your concerns, rather than failing to respond to them in a way that you recognize? Has she told you that "not caring" is her motive? How do you know, for sure, that it is? If you value your marriage at all, at this point, I think you owe it to yourself to make sure your assumptions are accurate.

I'd say if you're in a situation where your partner truly doesn't care about your feelings, there isn't much hope for the relationship. It's not actually much of a relationship. Then, I would think, maybe an "RA" kind of response would be "the person I'm married to doesn't care about me" and accept that as true. There is no way to change the situation. And accept that as true. Accept that you don't want to live that way (assuming that to be the case). File for divorce recognizing that not all relationships work out.

That's actually kind of "my side" of how my marriage ended. We tried couples therapy. The T said, the first session, you have three choices.1) Live with things as they are. 2) Change them. 3) Get out. I said right off I wasn't willing to do option 1. About the third session, my ex said he was "too old to change". I went out & hired a lawyer right after I left the office. I truly looked at it like neither of us were "bad people" it was just a bad combination. Turns out there might have been a bit more to it than that, but that was the bottom line.

 

[The Albatross]

@joeylittle

It falls off the tracks when I think I can make that life worth living by getting my wife to see the simple, easily reached goal of mutual respect and concern and integrity. I can't let go of that goal, I can't trade it in for radical acceptance of the idea that I need to give up on making it happen and just willingly face the reality that it will not.

The bottom line, radical acceptance or no, is that there are two choices with regard to situations and people: act or accept. That is it.

If you are unable to accept that your partner has an inability in this area and you are unable to accept this aspect of her personality then all that's left is "Is this a deal breaker?" If it is a deal breaker, take the actions necessary to either rectify the situation (like with couples counseling or mediated discussions with a neutral third party, after frank and candid fact based discussions about this with your spouse and being prepared to listen to her part with an open mind and heart ("Speak without offending. Listen without defending.")... OR take the actions necessary to sever the bond.

Doubled back to add in edit: There is a third option which is "compromise" however, in your circumstance @enough this possibility seems to have been a dead end.

 

[The Albatross]

Ugh. Messed up my edit... and had a brain cell fire off... there is also merit in resetting the relationship and fostering an atmosphere of "cooperation"... but that takes two and both partners have to be willing. We had to reestablish it with mentorship in couples counseling.