The Concept Of An Inner Child... Not Really Buying It

[Eleanor]

I don't know why I stopped getting notifications for this thread! Now I have to go back and catch up.... But from this page:

Frankenstein's monster.

I am a big fan of this book. And what I always find most fascinating is that people almost always use the metaphor of the monster far MORE accurately than they realized. Remember the monster is created by cobbling together parts of various corpses and then re-animating them and, instead of nurturing the newly awakened being, frightening him so badly he runs away. He is, in the story, quite a good soul - and wants a family and connections - but because of how he looks he is rejected. I've always been fascinated at the depth of the critique of our attitudes toward children, nature and culture and technology that Shelly captured in her fable.
Geek patrol, over and out.:geek:

the subconscious mind cannot grow older than 7 years old

Just to clarify - it will not attain the level of sophistication of beyond a 7 year old. But it is still quite plastic even after the major brain development has taken place. There is, after all, "one shot learning," where we acquire a new reflex after the first experience, provided that experience is sufficiently 'impactful." Also, while the "default" values of our responses may be set - it is possible to habituate and recondition various responses - which is why exposure therapy works.

There may be developmental windows, where if you don't develop a particular cognitive "trick" or capacity it will be hard to do later, (learning a language etc.) but there are not many areas where "rewiring" is not even a possibility. People used to think that you can't teach an old dog new tricks because the brain ceased to develop - but all the accumulating evidence points in the opposite direction - that we can and DO learn new tricks so long as we keep trying to.

And the thing about the dogs is wrong too.:D

 

[rightkindofme]

This is a fantastic thread!!! So many fantastic insights - I think I can add an element that hasn't been discussed yet.

I hope this made sense.

You just broke my brain with awesome. Thank you.

 

[I Can Do This]

Also, while the "default" values of our responses may be set - it is possible to habituate and recondition various responses - which is why exposure therapy works.

Absolutely correct - I was giving a very basic idea. We can recondition this part of our brain but it does so through experience. It doesn't learn any other way and is why exposure therapy is so helpful (and CBT not so much). This is where the cognitive brain is important to correcting our behavior - it can reason and observe itself but the primitive brain cannot.

You just broke my brain with awesome

So funny! :roflmao: I'll be stealing that if you don't mind. And thank you for the compliment!:D

 

[Pencil]

it does so through experience

Exactly, and this is VERY important.

 

[nimkekaa]

I love reading about the brain because it unlocks the mystery for me so here is my take on it.

Thank you so much for taking the time to share this information. I too love understanding the way the brain works. I find it very helpful in understanding what's going on with me with my PTSD.

 

[Hashi]

I'm still going to take more time to think, but as part of that I need to be a bit clearer what I'm thinking about. :confused:

I Can Do this, I'm stuck at your use of "subconscious". I wasn't aware that there was a definition of subconscious as:

our reptilian brain and limbic system (together are the subconscious)

I understand the reptilian/mammalian/neocortex brain thing as an automatic part, an instinctive part and a cognitive/rational part. I don't see that as relating to conscious/subconscious. To me, the subconscious mind is an entire separate consciousness capable of sophisticated and complex processing, managing and communication.

I understand that my instinctive/mammalian mind produces the fight/flight/freeze response. However, I can't relate to the idea that it was the instinctive/mammalian mind that gave me amnesia as a protective mechanism and later assessed and managed when, how and at what pace I should recover memories. Surely that isn't an animal instinct, and it isn't within the capability of a child of 7? That's why I'm perplexed at this definition of subconscious.

I'm not being pedantic about definitions, by the way. I'm trying to get at the heart of what you're saying. I've always seen inner child ideas as relating to the subconscious, and I think relating it to the mammalian brain is interesting to explore, but I would consider them as two different things. If the idea relies on them being the same, I can't really understand the idea.

Have I misunderstood your meaning?

 

[rightkindofme]

Well, part of the trouble is these are all theories. We think we understand the brain but different theorists have different explanations and they are like overlapping ven diagrams rather than perfectly lining up.

Why can't you identify with the idea that amnesia is an instinct? Without it you may have gotten stuck in thought patterns and been unable to keep yourself alive.

My understanding (could be flawed) is that people who experience really heightened stress (the kind that caused PTSD) changes kind of the running speed of your brain. If there is a 0-10 scale of stress that people move through, people with PTSD learned how to adapt to higher, potentially even 9/10 levels of stress. When things in your life calm down and your stress levels start dropping down and your brain starts lagging--thing of it like being in too high of a gear while driving your car--your brain starts to look for other things to send that energy towards. It kind of lurches and pushes forward really hard. It looks for more stress so that it can get back to its normal calibration.

That's why I blow up my life when things are comfortable. It's so I can get back to my "normal". Oops. Working on that.

So if you can't quit your job, move, find a new lover/break up with an old one... your body needs some way of upping the stress. If you have had trauma in your life your body knows what to go looking for in your brain to get back the stress level.

And this layers with my understanding that trauma can be put in a box and stored in a corner of the warehouse of your mind but you can't get rid of it until you unpack it and deal with it. Sometimes my body says, "Ok we are safe now. Time to get rid of some of these lingering boxes so that we can have more space." Then a huge rush of memories come up. It's very overwhelming.

It is an animal instinct to "not think about" things that might kill you. Absolutely. But the recovery process isn't about what seven year olds do. Seven year olds don't go through and do memory refrags. (That's on the computer where you have a program kind of shift everything over a bit to clear up the empty spots in between data sets.) But if you want to stay in this body for a long time you may eventually want the extra space so your brain has to just figure it out.

I think that part of what makes a lot of this confusing is: these are mostly theories. They are not definitive and it's hard to figure out how different theories interact because they were never intended that way. Yet we persist in wanting new connections. Frakkin humans. :)

 

[I Can Do This]

Hi Hashi! 1st - I am not a degreed professional on the brain so what I know is from my own reading.

To me, the subconscious mind is an entire separate consciousness capable of sophisticated and complex processing, managing and communication.

Where do you think the subconscious mind is? It has to be located in either the neocortex, limbic system or brain stem. There aren't any other choices. If the seat of our consciousness is in the neocortex - then even by process of elimination we can see that the subconscious has to be in the primitive section of our brains which governs our life force - as it also does in animals.

The subconscious is the same thing as the unconscious. It has no awareness of itself. It cannot observe itself. Only the necocortex can observe itself - and the primitive brain.

One book I really liked about this is called Evolve Your Brain by Joe Dispenza.

I can't relate to the idea that it was the instinctive/mammalian mind that gave me amnesia as a protective mechanism

This is a great question. There is a bell curve to the freeze response. When the input is too overwhelming there is COMPLETE dissociation - this is the amnesia that you mention. This is still a protective mechanism and is similar to when people have multiple personalities as I understand it. It is there to protect you from what is too much for you to handle.

how and at what pace I should recover memories

I haven't done much reading on this question you have. I know that memory goes from short term in the neocortex to long term in the cerebellum. And I know that our short term memory is lost if it does not have the opportunity to be stored in the cerebellum as a long term memory. So it would seem that certain events you experienced while at the upper most portion of the bell curve would be lost.

The memories that you do have stored will rise up as you make room for them by healing other traumas. That is how healing our traumas from the past happen in the present. BUT I know I have personally healed myself when I didn't have a memory - but was flooded with emotions and had no idea why or what they were about. The emotions may be all that you have of those events you cannot remember - the emotions we have are what needs to be healed because, after all, our emotions are the residue of our traumas that interfere with our life today.

Surely that isn't an animal instinct, and it isn't within the capability of a child of 7?

This is the same structure of our brains we share with animals - but remember animals do not have the large neocortex that can observe itself. An animal lives in the moment - it doesn't have to process the past as we do.

The capability of a child at 7 - I think albatross gave the better wording of "sophistication of a 7 year old mind". This part of our brain is ancient and I beleive it has not changed in millions of years - and it is the same in animals. We are separated from them by our neocortex alone. It is a survival response to the extreme.

I've always seen inner child ideas as relating to the subconscious, and I think relating it to the mammalian brain is interesting to explore, but I would consider them as two different things

That is where the confusion lies. The reptilian brain is the most ancient and primitive (brain stem). Then the brain evolved the limbic system - or mammalian brain - the seat of our emotions. These two structures together equal our subconscious mind. For instance, we triggered by PTSD we have emotions flooding our bodies. Our neocortex does not know why - but it creates meaning for our emotions many times AFTER we feel them. Therefore, in these instances our emotions are coming from an automatic source - anything automatic is subconscious. We learn to manage them through our neocortex alone.

If the idea relies on them being the same, I can't really understand the idea.

I think these are great questions! They are not the same - they are complementary and one is more evolved than the other. The reptilian is the oldest but the most primitive. It does not have emotions - and reptiles are cold blooded. The midbrain/limbic system/mammalian brain added more sophisticated characteristics to mammals. But they are still automatic. I think it is dolphins that have the largest neocortex of any animal, relative to its size. That I think is a good illustration of the difference a neocortex makes.

Does this help?:geek:

 

[I Can Do This]

My understanding (could be flawed) is that people who experience really heightened stress (the kind that caused PTSD) changes kind of the running speed of your brain. If there is a 0-10 scale of stress that people move through, people with PTSD learned how to adapt to higher, potentially even 9/10 levels of stress. When things in your life calm down and your stress levels start dropping down and your brain starts lagging--thing of it like being in too high of a gear while driving your car--your brain starts to look for other things to send that energy towards. It kind of lurches and pushes forward really hard. It looks for more stress so that it can get back to its normal calibration.

That is my undertanding too - and I swear I can FEEL those lurches you describe so well.

 

[Hashi]

Thanks so much for going through it, I Can Do This. I'm only going by my own reading and experiences as well.

Um... I think we have such different frames of reference that we are probably not going to be able to talk about the same thing here! I have a metaphysical approach and see things in terms of experience, energy and meaning. I was trying to translate what you said into that viewpoint but I think we have too fundamentally different an idea of the subconscious.

That's fine, vive la difference! So, not to try persuade you or anyone to my views, but only to explain where I'm coming from:

Where do you think the subconscious mind is? It has to be located in either the neocortex, limbic system or brain stem. There aren't any other choices.

The question isn't where I think it is but what I think it is. I don't think the mind is exactly the same as the physical brain. I don't think cognition is the same as consciousness. I think the subconscious mind falls into a group of things that can't be measured, located or dissected through scientific approaches - together with things like life force and will. For me, it's like asking where in the body is our conscience located?

I agree that we have animal instincts and automatic functioning. I think the subconscious mind is something quite different. With the example that I gave, my experience of recovering memories didn't happen until certain things were in place and I was ready to. I think this is a fairly usual (or at least not unusual) idea in psychology. I don't think this translates to other mammals (which it would, if it was from the mammalian brain).

To take a made-up composite example of how I see the human subconscious working, and try to fit that to the mammalian brain: If a horse was traumatised when young, I can't imagine that it's animal instincts could include blocking out the memories of that and acting as if nothing was wrong until it had grown up, paired with another horse, had a foal together, felt secure that it had pasture in summer and hay in winter, and it's father died - at which point it started to get flashbacks and nightmares.

To me, this kind of thing happening in traumatised humans are something else entirely from animal instincts/the mammalian brain. I don't see it as any of the three brains. I don't believe its automatic, but from a different system within us entirely that is monitoring and responding to our development, our inner resources, and our outer resources in a very sophisticated way.

So when we see people triggered, who then act like children - we can understand more easily why. That part of our brain is a child - its coping methods are limited and simplistic. Run from danger, fight to save yourself, or freeze so they think you are already dead.

I see this a bit differently too. I don't see survival instinct as a childlike behaviour. I see it as definitely related to the mammalian brain (all mammals share it) and not connected to age or development but to our animal nature at any age.

I'm interested in what you say about not using our rational brains much until the age of 7, and what the implications of that might be. In the same way that I wonder about the implications of things that happen when we're pre-verbal. I think I'm going to have to take that idea off into my own train of thought though!

I appreciate you sharing your views and explaining. It's always good to know where other people are coming from, especially since I'm usually coming from somewhere else entirely... :D

As I said, I'm not trying to persuade anyone, just explaining.

 

[Hashi]

[EDIT - Decided to rephrase this]

rightkindofme, thanks for your response.

Without it you may have gotten stuck in thought patterns and been unable to keep yourself alive.

It is an animal instinct to "not think about" things that might kill you.

My post above probably covers this, but I think it's a human response, and not an animal instinct. My understanding is that the mammalian brain is what we do instinctively, in common with other mammals. I wouldn't ascribe your examples to the mammalian brain because I don't think this is behaviour commonly seen in all mammals.

 

[Hashi]

I think this has been on topic because it's specifically to do with it's relationship to the inner child.

I'm starting to feel a little nervous that from this point onwards it could veer off into a different discussion though. So please keep any posts focussed on the inner child concept, as everyone has done so far. Thanks! :):)