News The God Debate

[Lucycat]

I don't believe I put words in anyone else's mouth... except maybe @Lucycat and for that I am very sorry!

Nothing to apologise for!

My take on all this is that as a child I believed in God, Santa and the tooth fairy in equal measure. I had evidence of the existence of all three. I had to accept them if I were to get the promised rewards. I even had to pretend after I knew the truth in order to continue the facade. Bit by bit this was replaced by fact. Santa and the tooth fairy was a parent giving gifts. God - well no you still have to believe that one. 'Just believe it'.

I am currently studying statistics and trying to get my head round the research methodology. I have learned the meaning of Null Hypothesis. In this case my Null Hypothesis would be 'Gods do not exist'. If someone can disprove it then I will happily reject it. However before anyone tells me about the Bible being proof, I would suggest that if one is to consider one book referring to a god then we would also have to produce all books referring to a god in order for the evidence to have any statistical meaning. Evidence needs to be observable, so believing is not good enough for me.

I respect everybody's choice. I do not respect people that come knocking on my door trying to tell me about their views on their particular religion. Last time that happened I was distressed and them asking me if I had ever considered why people do evil things led me to collapse in floods of tears, standing there on the doorstep in front of these complete strangers. I spotted the same people in the village on Wednesday. They went straight past my house, so maybe they have learned a lesson.

I am interested in religion. I watch a lot of religious debates on TV. I have read the bible cover to cover. I have not read each and every religious text because I am not interested enough. That would be like asking me to read about another countries fairy stories just because I was interested enough to read my own.

I know people are very precious about their faith and belief. People very quickly get offended by the asking of a question. However it seems to me that there is a lack of understanding regarding those of us who have discarded religion. Loss of faith is even used as diagnostic criteria for some illnesses and I find that offensive.

 

[digger]

There is a quote that I heard recently that I really like. I don't know anything about the person who said it, so please don't assume that my using it implies that I do, I just think that the words are appropriate to the topic.

"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.” Stuart Chase.

I am an atheist. I was brought up as a Christian. Like some others have said, being able to let go of the ideas of needing gods or religion in my life was a relief. Some of my family are very religious. My brother is about to start training for ministery. I am lucky enough to live in a very culturally diverse place and to have amongst my friends Quakers, Muslims, Atheists, Agnostics, Pagans, Buddhists and Christians of various denominations.

What I've learned from both my own explorations and questioning, and from the people around me, is that religion and faith (including non-faith) is a very personal thing. People can get, understandably, very defensive about it because it is at the core of their being. Atheism is at the core of my being. I hold myself 100% accountable for my decisions and actions and how they affect others.

I have to say I'm actually quite impressed that this thread hasn't descended into defensiveness and contempt sooner ;)

I kind of held of posting for a while because the way this sort of thread can turn makes me uncomfortable, but I guess I wanted to say, particularly to the OP, if the purpose of the thread is to try and convince people that your conclusions about religion and gods are the right ones, then I think you are both wasting your time and just going to antagonise people. You don't come across as someone who has many doubts about where they sit on this subject so I'm curious as to what you really want to get from the debate?

 

[anthony]

Anthony's analogy - God, an entity to be worshiped. Religion, an organisation of rules and beliefs a person chooses, or dismisses. Belief, is a personal choice.

I think studying religion is complete nonsense, because studying will not change a belief. You're either predisposed to wanting a belief system of religion, or you aren't. That desire, that predisposition, can change at any time in your life for or against the belief system. You can believe, then no longer. You can not believe, then choose to believe. Both are normally determined on life changes.

Science cannot make factual a belief system, otherwise it would be a factual system, and not a belief system.

That is Anthony's analogy of this type of debate. :D :coffee:

 

[digger]

However it seems to me that there is a lack of understanding regarding those of us who have discarded religion. Loss of faith is even used as diagnostic criteria for some illnesses and I find that offensive.

Absolutely. I think a lot of people tend to assume that atheism equates to laziness with regards to religion. That it is something people have given no thought to. I think some people find it hard to understand that my faith and conviction in my beliefs as an atheist is just as strong and considered as theirs in their religion.

 

[TimeToHeal]

I do not think (and @Muzikluvr please correct me if I am wrong, as I would not want to be accused of putting words in anyone mouths), that the snippet @Barberian quoted from one of @Muzikluvr's posts, was meant or intended to "push her agenda" on anyone. I interpreted it as a statement of her opinion of and feelings toward the portion of a book that she read. Could she have stated it in a more "politically correct" manner? Sure. But, as others have already stated, this is a topic which many people become passionate about.

I also do not see where she has attempted to convince anyone to change their views to adhere to hers. I could be wrong (it happens :O_o:), but personally I did not interpret any of her posts to have that intention.

I think, and it is my hope, that all of humanity will come to their own beliefs of their own accord. As opposed to simply adhering to the beliefs of their families or whatever happens to be the current most popular thing.

Similarly, I believe that everyone is entitled to their own religious beliefs - or views on god, if you will - and that they shall be treated with respect regarding such. Anyone who has chosen to participate in this thread - this "debate" - has done so of their own free will. And I will say, for the most part, I find it to be a rather civil, interesting, and intellectual discussion.

Peace. :)[DOUBLEPOST=1400417464,1400417345][/DOUBLEPOST]Oh....I also meant to say.... I love John Lennon's song, "Imagine," which @Barberian posted a link to!! And yes, I do think the world would be a much happier, more peaceful place if it were to be that way.

 

[intothelight]

if the purpose of the thread is to try and convince people that your conclusions about religion and gods are the right ones, then I think you are both wasting your time and just going to antagonise people. You don't come across as someone who has many doubts about where they sit on this subject so I'm curious as to what you really want to get from the debate?

In its purest form a debate is means by which parties with opposing viewpoints present "evidence" to to solidly support their position. However, debates can have even a greater purpose where people use this to reinforce their own beliefs (a self-check); use it as an opportunity to explore new ideas or opinions; to learn how to interact and handle opposing viewpoints in an appropriate manner; etc. Debates at all times should be respectful to differing opinions, and it isn't a matter of how strong one's convictions are, it is about how those convictions are communicated.

You're either predisposed to wanting a belief system of religion, or you aren't.

There are some interesting scientific articles about the human brain being "wired for God". So in essence a humans could possibly be "wired" for some type of belief system, whether it be for God, a form of government, humanism, etc. There are also some interesting articles on how PTSD can affect the "God" portion of the brain. So are we wired that way because God created us that way, or is it an evolutionary adaption that survived natural selection as those that bond together under a common belief system had a better chance as a cohesive group at survival?

By dissolve, I mean go into the history books along with Zeus and the others that we no longer believe in.

What if it is true, would that not make it transcend changes in society? In my opinion, God is timeless and it is man-made interpretations that change and ideas that ebb and flow that causes the change in religion. Is it God that makes religion a tool of harm or is it mans' interpretation and intent that turns religion harmful?

the Bible is considered the stories or 'history' in many respects.

Junebug, you hit upon a really valid point here, as study does require taking the "story" in the historical context of when it was written and the intended audience. In my opinion, it is discerning the fundamental "truth" that transcends the time and place, but in order to find that "truth" one has to have faith or else it is a history lesson. Oh, and I do believe that studying history is invaluable as a to prevent society as a whole from making the same mistakes as our ancestors. I don't think anyone regardless of their religious convictions wants to see a repeat of the Holocaust.

Do you know what Pascal himself said about religion? “Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." - Pascal

That statement can be taken two ways, one being that religion promotes or creates evil; and the other being that people will use any excuse, including religion, to justify their own actions. I believe that "evil" people use religion as an excuse, or whatever other excuse they feel justifies their actions.

If good people lived with belief in their own power, the way the predator in my childhood believed in his own power... our world would be a much more ordered place.

If everyone lived according to their own beliefs, independent of some type of social norm or constraint (be it religion, government, humanism) would that not result in chaos and anarchy? In my opinion, a predator lives by their own beliefs in the face of everything that is moral and socially acceptable and that is precisely what makes them a predator.

What if our society believed in a collective consciousness without borders, without prejudices, without biases? What if we supported and cared for one another, the creatures on the earth, the earth and our universe in a spirit of interrelated, interdependence?

I don't find anything in your statement there that conflicts with Christianity. Again, are the problems in ourselves, our communities, our societies and our world a result of God, or are they result of man and his interpretation of God?

Thank you for starting this thread as it really is making me think about my own personal beliefs and having to dig deep to understand why I believe what I believe.

 

[Muzikluvr]

How many of those trolls behave perfectly respectable to people face to face, when they might face repercussions for bad behavior?

Exactly.

Social pressure is more effective than the questionable existence of an unseen supernatural, omniscient being who will rain fire and brimstone down on a person after they die for the things they did while they were alive.

My point, and I'm sorry I ranted. This is a difficult conversation for me as well, @Barberian I know you said you wrote for a long time in your first response, I know what you mean. I should have deleted my rant and I feel I have egg on my face now, in re-reading it. But, my point was that controlling those of us who would never rape or murder someone with the fear of going to hell and the promise of going to heaven is not building a good society. We are afraid of going to hell for being homosexual, for having sex out of wedlock, for taking the Lord's name in vain, for not covering our whole bodies so our eyes are all that peeps out (muslim), etc, etc... We are afraid of going to hell for arbitrary, ridiculous, homophobic, misogynistic reasons.

But, those who would rape and murder, they already decided that they don't believe in heaven or hell. They can control everyone around them by understanding our shared beliefs. If we are mostly Christian, then they use our desire to please Christ by asking ourselves "What would Jesus do?". They make suggestions about our religion to get us thinking about it, while they torment and torture us.

If there be a hell, why is it not solely reserved for sadistic, rapists and murderers?

Why would the bible throw out so many good people? Why would god punish his flock, whom he gave free will, just for not believing in him... when he gives so many reasons to doubt him? Why is he willing to punish us for thinking for ourselves? Why do we deserve to be punished for it? Because he created us? We owe him that debt of gratitude? We are obstinate, ungrateful children who refuse to kneel down at their creator? I have not seen my creator. Why would I worship someone who created us, then never intervened in my life? Why should I be taught to worship someone whose deeds have been been explained by science, or coincidence, or human manipulation?

My question goes to... what if instead of teaching everyone to admire and worship this imaginary supernatural being, we taught everyone that we're all connected and what you do in life has a direct and reverberating effect on our society as a whole? What if we taught ourselves that we are alone in our heads and what we think is our own thoughts? What if we take credit for the good deeds we think to do? What if we reject the idea that God put those thoughts in our heads? Can you see that, I have done that, and I still do good deeds? I still think good thoughts? If God is responsible for my thoughts, and I reject him, I disrespect his name, then why is he still putting good thoughts in my head? Why not forsake me as I have him? When can I have control over my own mind? Some of you will answer the question about why god would keep putting thoughts into my head... and I will ask in return, why does that comfort you?

Why are you comforted to know that you are being watched, you are being controlled or at least manipulated? Why are you comforted by that... and do you really think that God's plan for your life has been working out better than what you could have done without him? For yourself, I mean. Are you really so altruistic that you would allow that God needed you to be traumatized in order for something good to happen elsewhere... and you're okay with that? You would sacrifice yourself for that?

When my father rejected my side of the story in lieu of his uncle's lies, his cousin had convinced him that I hated him for some unknown reason. The ensuing relationship between my dad and I, tainted by this belief of his and by my belief that he was tricked and I just needed to convince him that I loved him... ended up very similar to how the church makes sacrificial lambs of some of it's following (not usually one in their midst, but the congregation accepts the challenge to sacrifice themselves in the name of the Lord, as was stated by another member here... that she would if she felt she had the opportunity). Do you not see that my real world experience in martyring myself for my father's love, is very similar to someone martyring themselves for a father in heaven? Can you see that being a martyr is equal to being a willing victim? A volunteer, to be victimized.

If there is a god, what if he created our universe and is just watching to see it unfold? What if he is not like us at all, but is a gaseous being with no solid form, but with consciousness? What if the bible is not only wrong about the obvious stuff that men added, that the Catholic church added. What if the bible is not only wrong about how our world was formed... but is also wrong about everything it says about god because no one knew god, they only made up stories that seemed viable at the time. What if there is a god and he is very sad that we've created wars against each other, that we've allowed whole cultures of humans to be eradicated, that we've allowed nations to live in abject poverty with no running water for sanitation and no irrigation to grow food? What if, instead of feeling like we can do nothing... we believe we can do everything!

What if we believe we can solve the world's problems on our own? What if we believe that our world is our own to manipulate, as much as we can, to make it last for as long as we can? What if we are one species, one world, with the ability to destroy ourselves over petty differences or the ability to warp time and space and colonize new, younger worlds? What if we don't have to hate each other? What if we don't have to retaliate against each other for bruising our egos or for killing our children? What if, instead, we are better served in communicating our pain to one another? What if, despite how it appears when people are proving a point by kidnapping our young girls who only want an education in reality, we can change their world by joining together to find them, to return them, to express our pain, and to collectively teach that group that they are irrational, and wrong in what they believe? What if it's not a matter of punishing people for their beliefs, but educating them to understand their lives and our society?

What if the fact that we support the belief in a god that was created in a book that we don't even read for ourselves, one that we are told to take certain parts as fable and other parts as fact (until science proves them wrong)... what if our passive, casual support for this god only fuels the fire of those zealots who would read it with certainty, taking all of it literally... because they believe THEY are the chosen few who will live for eternity in Heaven, while we are not committed enough to get through that narrow gate. What if our casual beliefs only serve to muddy the waters, to bridge the gap from sanguine understanding of the difference between life on earth and the promise of life everlasting.. and Jihad where one would believe that killing thousands or a few people will be rewarded with 1000 virgins in heaven?

Don't even get me started on how a culture could embrace a religion that rewards one man with 1000 girls... and just how dismissive my life would be in that culture. Who would care that I was raped? I mean, who would care about my life after I was raped? I would be disposable. I am nothing but an object to be protected, as long as I am a virgin...afterwards, I am nothing but a servant to the man who popped my cherry.

What do you think our world would be like if we respected everyone in it? What if the prevailing belief was that no matter what color, race, religion/non-religion, or gender someone is... they have value, and knowing what they have to say is important to our world. We need them to think for themselves so they might share their logic, their intelligence with us to create a better world for all of us. And, anyone could be a genius. Anyone could solve these problems, we must value everyone so they grow up to believe that the problems on earth are worth thinking about, worth solving, and that they are capable of solving some of those problems.

Neil deGrasse Tyson talks about the Arabs who were great mathematicians until one day a Muslim guru taught them that Math is the devil's tool, and the Arabs stopped creating new math equations to understand our worlds natural laws. Look at what we've lost!

How will our species survive the disconnection created by religion? Massive killings cause untold animosity. How will we ever come back together, in a respectful gathering? When will women believe that they are as wise and capable as men, that perhaps they could come up with a better social structure than the men created thousands of years ago? What if women, because we are prone to taking care of others, actually have a solution to society's need for religion... but, because many women are forced (brainwashed) to follow the beliefs of misogynistic religions they have never revealed why they are willing to be subservient for the good of their families and communities? What if women have the answer, but their subservience has been exploited and their willingness to be humble has been reviled by the leaders of our cultures... and so, they are trying to adapt to be more like men so they can be heard? But, what if that is a huge mistake?

 

[Muzikluvr]

Mmmm ... is this perhaps a clue? Perhaps because there is something valid in it? Such as that it might be universal enough to be adaptable? But whether Christianity is valid or not, it is clear that it has not become obsolete.

I wonder if that "something valid" is more along the lines of the Thomas Jefferson bible, where he took out all the supernatural parts of Christianity and saved all the parts which were beneficial to humanity. If so, my concern continues to be... what if our world would be immensely greater for everyone if we didn't believe in a supernatural being of any kind? Instead we created a social belief that we are all equal, we are all worthy and valuable to one another, and we abide by these certain highly accepted rules of conduct that express our appreciation and respect for one another. These social beliefs would be derived from historical moral values from all of our religious documents, many of them overlap in how to treat one another. What if instead of believing that these are divine rules that must never be broken, we believe that as we evolve, so must our rules... and they are a living document, much like our tort laws in the US, where relevant real-time court cases create new rules for handling issues which have never been faced before based on the ways we have solved similar problems in the past.

What if our social rules of conduct, weren't sacred, but were highly valued by everyone?

 

[Survivor2Thriver]

What if there is actually an explanation for many coincidences, and for the spirituality we all feel... an explanation that doesn't include one God, but instead involves an interdependence that we all feel not only emotionally, but also physically. The elements of our bodies naturally combine with each other. When those bonds are broken, the elements don't disappear, but seek new bonds.
What if our society believed in a collective consciousness without borders, without prejudices, without biases? What if we supported and cared for one another, the creatures on the earth, the earth and our universe in a spirit of interrelated, interdependence?

You just described heaven.

 

[Muzikluvr]

I see you have contempt for mine and really don't care about other people or their belief system(s) regardless of how important it is to them

I may have contempt for your religion, but I do not have contempt for you. I have enjoyed posting with you here and I feel my heart filling with hope for you, hope that you are well and that you will continue to be well. I don't know what that is, that hope that my heart is filling with... but I would call it connection. I see you as an equal, a relevant and worthy human being and I appreciate your words. I'm sorry that we disagree so widely on your religious views. I cannot change how I felt when I read some of the things the bible said. I was honest about it, and I didn't curb my tongue to respect your view because I am trying to have a debate. Perhaps the word "bullshit" should have been replaced with irrational nonsense that offends my soul.

Peace.
Muz

BTW, it is not my intention to have contempt for Christianity. I am saddened by that state as well, however, it is my state of mind on the subject and I cannot converse about it without revealing my contempt. I'm sure some will be turned off from the discussion by this admission, however... I learned to feel contempt for manipulation of whole social systems through the use of bribery and the threat of punishment; and Christianity is guilty of such manipulation. And for what?

For a god that may or may not exist? For our social structure to exist? Our social structure may be stronger without invoking a supernatural being to oversee it.

 

[Muzikluvr]

You don't come across as someone who has many doubts about where they sit on this subject so I'm curious as to what you really want to get from the debate?

I want a place to discuss my beliefs. I want a place to ask my questions. I want a world where people respect non-believers because non-believers have valid points, and believers understand why they believe and are honest about it. It's not because it is absolute, it is because they choose to believe it. I want believers to understand that their belief is harmful to others, particularly those of us who would sacrifice our lives for our beliefs. I want those pretenders who support a religion because it is socially acceptable, and at times lucrative to their careers, to recognize that there are other people in the world who have a closer world view with them and we condemn them for their greed or exploitation.

Did I create a thread called "The God Debate" because I wasn't sure which side of the argument I would be on? No. Who would do that? I am not the arbitrator of the debate, I am a debater. I have not censored others, though I was quite tempted to chastise the shameless plug for Jehovah's Witness.

My views on our society are not discussed in my community because they don't include a deity. I don't even know how to begin a discussion on these views. I am in need of a place where I can see or hear my thoughts so I can analyze them, and get behind them... why do I think the way I do, and is it rational? And, I recognize that we need to be challenged by outsiders in order to better understand ourselves and our world; just because I agree with myself, doesn't make me right. I welcome challenges to my beliefs, and I intend to challenge those beliefs expressed by asking questions. Hence, the aptly named thread...

Actually, I think that many readers are reading my questions as if I know all the answers to them. I don't know all the answers to my own questions. I pose questions that come to mind when I read some posts, and those questions do challenge the veracity of the beliefs suggested. I would welcome a rational answer to those questions - or any answer. I am doing my best to avoid the pitfalls, the traps, and challenging one's personal evidence for their beliefs. I do not intend to make anyone feel stupid for believing what they believe. I felt embarrassed when I first realized that religion had manipulated me. I do not mean to embarrass anyone. I have believed some pretty crazy things in the past... and that is one reason why I feel contempt for those who casually support religion... they don't really believe, but their pretense of belief contributes to a child's (and adult's) perception that god is real, that the bible is true... because so many people believe it. How could they all be wrong?

And, I want to state that they can... they can all be wrong. Just because a lot of people share the same belief, does not make it true. It doesn't make it sacred and offensive to question.

 

[Survivor2Thriver]

Great thread @Muzikluvr! I see your view as seeing a oneness. We have evolved from space dust. The universe/God/Allah/Buddaha or the cows that came home...LOL has allowed us to evolve into having the ability to speak. Hence,humans. And look at us...everyone wishes to argue. Someday humanity will continue to evolve and we will work together as one.

Everything on this planet has a purpose. Life is energy. Our energy will continue to serve a purpose after it leaves our body. A higher level of life or fish food?

Everyone believes in something.....

I trust in God. :)