News The God Debate

[Tinyflame]

Dear @Muzikluvr, forgive me again there are posts I should still read! Oye.

Your last post, the end, I don't think God manipulates anyone. If anything, for myself when something is on my mind eventually I trace it back to my past, to ptsd, to beliefs, & ideally I learn something new. I try to figure out 'why' something is bothering me, or on my mind. It leads me on from there.

As Anthony said, it's a belief. But for me it started probably as information, it's now personal. It's as personal as if it were a person with me. In so many ways it's consoling I don't know where to begin, it grounds me. The relationship brings me great peace. Without it I would have no strength. I feel like it gives me an anchor, guidance & direction I wouldn't have without it.

Without elaborating, there have been so many direct experiences & specific things they simply have no explanation, as I said before. Amazing things.

I am analytical by nature, & I realize there are volumes I do not know. Albert Einstein used to say for example, we see in 3D. The other planes are outside our visual field, but if we could see in 4D etc, we would see what is present in that dimension. It is not invisible, simply outside of our cacpacities. I think there is much outside of my capacity to realize. :)

I guess one could say it's a 'gamble' to believe. But I was always a gambler. All I can say is, I've yet to regret it.

 

[intothelight]

@Muzikluvr I wasn't offended at all, but was just trying to illustrate how a statement can be perceived in different ways. The member that wrote the post was just thankful she had an opportunity to share what she has found. Personally, I know you created the thread for a really good discussion, and I am not a believer in predestination as that completely negates free will.

 

[anthony]

So are we wired that way because God created us that way, or is it an evolutionary adaption that survived natural selection as those that bond together under a common belief system had a better chance as a cohesive group at survival?

I put it down to this actually... some people love human interaction, some don't. One could say... explain that if everyone is created by one entity? Comes back to... who knows? God, religion, belief system of personal choice?

 

[Muzikluvr]

Well, I'm feeling pretty disappointed that I couldn't keep my focus. Couldn't separate my personal experiences from generalizing how I view the world, couldn't make the right argument for my perspective as I found myself expressing the arguments I'm against rather than the ones I am for.

Here is a video that I can relate to...

 

[Pencil]

god has manipulated me to create this discussion?

Oops, you have totally missed free will. God does not manipulate or control anything. Perhaps your dislike stems from lack of knowledge. :)

 

[The Albatross]

Here is the full quote from the initial post: "“Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” ~ Steven Weinberg

As you can see it is quite different from your opening post:
"Good people will do good things, evil people will do bad things, but it takes religion for good people to do bad things"

There is still something inherently flawed with "But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." As Deb suggests when she mentioned the holocaust, if one takes a look at genocide for instance, it is easy to see that religion is not the only factor responsible for "good people doing evil things". There are also "-isms", communism, fascism, Marxism...capitalism. In essence, political ideologies in play. Genocide is a "for instance", there are others. Like slavery that you mentioned up thread... a multicultural problem that, though deplorable, is still practiced in many parts of the world. It is not though, exclusive to religious practices - it is cultural.

In my view, political ideologies are as likely to lead to "evil" things. Humanity is what it is, motivations are complex and humanist viewpoints though admirable do not counter or would not cure national or global societal ills. National governments and political factions are as likely to lead to death and atrocities as religion. Political ideologies is also a vehicle by which "good people can do evil things"

Can't take time this morning to expound further, but for that reason the quote by Steven Weinberg is inherently flawed and is a false premise to base a discussion on so far as God, matters of faith or the lack of it, on atheism or religion as he himself prefaced, "Religion is an insult to human dignity." No fudge room there in his preface for the bit you quoted is there? Contempt for religion and in the author's view, religion - apparently no matter which one is deplored.

 

[Muzikluvr]

Perhaps your dislike stems from lack of knowledge. :)

Could I ever know enough to reject the whole notion of there being a personal God - one which I might pray to?

 

[Muzikluvr]

God is defined by religion. When you speak of Him, you speak of the one you still believe in.

 

[The Albatross]

I have to ask though, did you see the quote in the chat header and then decide to discuss it or debate it? Or did you put it up there, and then open the thread. I'm confused as to which came first though of course it is none of my business, I just think that it is a pretty odd coincidence that the quote you used was the same one that bothered Solara as the header in the chat forum.

Though now it is understood that the header in chat can be changed by premium members as they care to, it is just something that piqued my interest and you of course are under no obligation to answer.

 

[The Albatross]

I also think it is important to note that predating boarders and nation states, cultural proclivities and religion are the two most prolific ideologies that bind people together and create societies. I think that in present day we can add nationalism, statist and political ideologies.

People grouped together to form societies out of mutual need for survival, protection, and mutual gain. People still do. I do not see in the foreseeable future that human kind will be able to refine their characters to the degree necessary for peaceful co-existence even with the eradication of religion without also taking into account the affect of political, national, cultural ideologies of global citizens and hammering out some sort of unifying principles without risking extermination by those dissenter's of a global accord.

What would have to happen would include an amalgamation of global interests and basic principles. Then hammering out an agreement akin to our U.S. founding documents... and upon reaching agreement protections set into place by rouge governments that breeched the agreement. Sort of like a socio-political and religious "reformation" for lack of a better word. I just don't see that happening possibly ever.

 

[Muzikluvr]

No, you're right, it won't likely happen because people just morph their God to match their updated beliefs; which protects those social norms that are already in place, but also preserves the animosity between the offended religion's followers.

 

[The Albatross]

Last thoughts: So far as man/humanity is wired for pleasure seeking behaviors as much as is for survival... as I see it the purpose of religion from a societal standpoint in world cultures apart and away from the existence of God, god, gods or none at all... served the purpose as a unifying frame of reference for morality and participation in a group environment. Without that frame of unifying principles/beliefs/practices as Deb also suggested there would be anarchy and chaos. I do not think that religion is outmoded yet in our communities, countries, world, cultures though there are aspects of it that are clearly in error... there is nothing yet to replace it as a way to reign in what I mentioned earlier: hedonism.

Off hand I think it is apt that in the Bible there is a phrase, whom will you serve God or Mammon. (too short on time for the direct quote) as this simple phrase encapsulates the problem with humanity, and civilized societies.