The T Said I Am Frightening And I Am Affected Really Badly

[Powder]

@Muse,

I think saying

"I have read over and over that patients with trauma often switch into a protector self and threaten to kill the therapist (who we suddenly see as a perpetrator)"

is saying a bit much. I don't believe this happens "often" or else many of us would have police records for threatening others or would have immediately been committed.

I overstated it, but actually with Complex Trauma, patients do test and test and test. You're right about that, but it happens. Therapists are afraid that dissociated patients will attack them because it happens.

My sister dissociated and has nearly killed me, and once pushed me so that I was injured. She tore a boyfriend's shirt in half and pushed him out a window, only the screen was so tight he didn't actually fall.

No police reports occurred, Solara, because we loved her, didn't feel actually permanently harmed, and know that her parts took over control. She snapped out of it and felt confused after. :( People don't just file a police report when someone threatens them or almost hurts them. They usually will only do so to protect someone else or if they are hurt and someone calls the cops and they have no choice. No one likes a snitch.

I would think a Therapist, like any professional, would try to deal with issues at the lowest level. Not call the cops every time someone reacts. ;)

I guess I have to ask, How do you know I'm wrong? Did you work as a therapist or in an inpatient setting? I don't see how my perspective that there is a lot of anger that comes lose in PTSD, and some of it gets put on the T's, or others, temporarily, is invalidated by your doubt. Most lashing out by people is controlled enough or held internally, not spoken out loud, or spoken in socially acceptable ways, but I see a fair bit of hostility toward therapists on this thread. ;) Really, don't you see that, too? None of us were there, but everyone is "incensed" with this woman. I don't see anything abnormal at all here. I overstated my case, but I think I have a point.

I'm a teacher, and I don't know ANY teacher who has not had a death threat from a student. One of my fav teachers got a decapitated bird in a box under his desk. No, he couldn't prove it, but he knew who put it there. No, the cops were not called. I see how I have triggered an anger at authority figure response from students. I try to be very validating and fair, reasonable, and compassionate. But some people have a lot of explosive rage. I usually have one per 25, every quarter. And they are not in therapy for PTSD!

 

[Riptide]

.... but I see a fair bit of hostility toward therapists on this thread. ;) Really, don't you see that, too? None of us were there, but everyone is "incensed" with this woman. I don't see anything abnormal at all here.
!

Abnormal? Hostility? I am devestated at what this therapist did. I sat in her office for months multiple times a week and never once was hostile, threatening, violent, etc. When this happened, I was curled in the chair and quiet. She stood up to end the session - "time's up". I got more scared and said "stay away."

I made no move towards her, I tried to get away, the opposite direction of her.
I am much younger than she, smaller, and female.

• This report from the APA states that between 35 percent and 40 percent of psychologists in clinical practice are at risk of being assaulted by a patient at some time during their clinical careers. Other studies suggest that assaults happen more frequently in predoctoral training years, and in psychologists' early careers. ----- Christopher Munsey (2008). Stay safe in practice. APA Monitor Vol 39(4), 36.

• "More than a third of psychiatrists have been assaulted by a patient at least once. The risk of violent victimization is greater in clinicians with less experience" ---- Antonius, D., Fuchs, L., Herbert, F., Kwon, J., Fried, J. L., Burton, P. R. S., Straka, T., Levin, Z., Caligor, E. & Malaspina, D. (2010). Psychiatric assessment of aggressive patients. The American Journal of Psychiatry, 167(3), 253-259.

This therapist is old and been practicing for 25+ years, mostly as a psychiatrist who later became interested in therapy.

Here are some known risk factors for violent clients

• "Study after study has found the same risk factors: Younger males with a history of substance abuse and past psychosis...are particularly prone to violent outbursts.... It's important to watch for signs of emergent violence. Signs that the patient might become violent include agitated behavior like pacing, explicit or implicit threats, darting eye movement, and invasion of the clinician's personal space. --- Sullivan, Michele G. (2006, October). “Assisting patients, staying safe: a delicate balance.” Clinical Psychiatry News, vol. 34, #10

I did nothing related to any of these behaviors. I was frozen curled in my chair.

When the therapist stood up, she was ending the session. "Times up" --- but I got more scared by her movement.
The therapist was triggering me because she was going too fast -- "tell me about your childhood in detail" without establishing a trusting relationship. Pushing too hard. When this event happened she directly asked me a question about my abuse history, which we had not talked about in detail.

I had one adult T before. She was not scared of me... dissociation, flashbacks and all. At times I would wind up under her desk "hiding" or behind a chair in fear. She helped me, she didn't leave me in silence or accuse me of being threatening. She was gentle and concerned about me.

Not all dissociation works the same. Not all parts work the same, protectors or others. Not all people are triggered by the same things.

It wasn't that I only saw this therapist a couple times. She should have been able to "assess" me based on what she claimed to have experience/expertise in. If I was so "frightening" or "threatening" why did she see me so much?
Then she terminated me on the phone. Am I a leper? Months and she terminates me on the phone. That is simply devaluing to me as a person, especially with her knowing my background in foster care where I was dumped without notice and moved without reason or discussion. What about "First do no harm?" She simply did not care.

 

[Powder]

Riptide,

I'm sorry you misunderstood my post. I'm not good at being simple and clear when I'm still trying to get through the muck myself. Thank you for posting some statistics!

You said:
"I had one adult T before. She was not scared of me... dissociation, flashbacks and all. At times I would wind up under her desk "hiding" or behind a chair in fear. She helped me, she didn't leave me in silence or accuse me of being threatening. She was gentle and concerned about me."

When you said one "adult" T before, do you mean that you had T's during childhood?

What happened to that gentle T who did care?

Hold on, Riptide, we're here to support you,

Muse

 

[mamachick]

I have not experienced this kind of dissociation/flashback myself, but my understand is consistant of Muse's point. Her sister did and when she snapped out of it, was left confused. That is consistant with my understanding of such states, and that the person who experiences such a flashback can not remember the events when they return to their normal state. They are confused and therefore can not recall what others said exactly, or state exactly what happened. Maybe someone can answer this with my researching it for certainty. It is an altered state of consciousness, upon returning to their normal state, how can they accurately describe the events that took place while they were in a state of basically a black out?

 

[mamachick]

Also, what happened after you bolted out of the office? where did you go? When did you come back? How did the session end? Also, what did she do to trigger your?

My questions are not about blaming you, you had a bad experience and have every right to be angry.

 

[Abstract]

. My sister and I grew up afraid of each other's C-PTSD,

Muse, I hope you don't mind me saying but it is normal for children to be afraid of each others distress. We are talking about a T here who advertises that she specialises in dissociation and PTSD. Also just because some threaten each other or others does not mean all do.

I will say too again that just because a client is totally regressed does not at all mean the client has the type of dissociation that involves alters. A dissociated flashback to a specific time will have the client behaving as a child but not switching. Just behaving as the child did then which for many will reliably be withdrawal and fear and not a fight response. Some of us don't even have a surviving fight response without long term therapy to find it again. Certainly the case for me. Fight only ever aimed at me.

It seems to me that on both this thread and the other those that assume the client has to done something to warrant the therapist fear are putting their own experiences in there to some extent even when nothing has been said to indicate she was threatening in any sense and everything to indicate the opposite. It's like the whole there is no smoke without fire argument without listening first. Extremely unhelpful for someone left battling a sense of being frightening as a result of this experience.

It is an altered state of consciousness, upon returning to their normal state, how can they accurately describe the events that took place while they were in a state of basically a black out?

Because the T told her what happened for the parts she can't remember.

Also even if therapist are under threat at some point in their careers then telling a patient they are frightening when all the client has ever done is have a dissociated flashback, been regressed, been afraid and left is not appropriate in my opinion.

Abruptly breaking off contact with this as a parting comment and no follow through or any attempt at making sure there is safety for a client is what I can't accept.

Of course some T's are going to find they are out of their depth at some point. Referring them on, as hard as that is for the client, is the mature, professional and caring thing to do. Best done with lots of reassurance. Leaving the client high and dry and with the parting words of "do you know how frightening you are" where all they have done is be afraid is not on in my book. Therapist should be managing their own feelings and using supervision rather than letting it spill out in a way that damages the client.

 

[Abstract]

Riptide, maybe fighting your corner here and expressing your defence and opinion will be helpful in moving on. I really hope so. :)

What are you doing about further treatment at present?

 

[mamachick]

I think part of moving away from depression and ptsd is challenging thinking and often. As Abstract has stated, the way the therpist broke off contact and the parting words are unacceptable. Further, that the therapist did not reccomend and alternative for her is equally disturbing to me.

Personally, I would call and ask where at what treatment she reccomends. She has had many visits and should easily provide that answer.

 

[Powder]

Abstract, I don't say that the T is right. Not sure where you get that from in my posts. I made it clear that she is not "right." But I don't think polarizing is helpful. I am sad and angry that Riptide was treated like this as she describes. I would be filing some kind of complaint against a T in this case.

I also believe in listening to both sides and not jumping to a side without enough information. I was trying to get Riptide to flesh out why she fixated on the phrase that is bothering her and perhaps see it from more than one angle. I also wanted her to understand that professionals are human and make mistakes. (In this case, too many) We expect something more from a trained person who advertises qualifications, yes.

In my experiences those issues they advertise are bunk. They all say PTSD now; vets are home, and they want clients. I say ask for referrals for the "best" person for C PTSD in the entire region. I called and asked female psychiatrists who the bests Ph.D. Psychologist was for EMDR with C PTSD from early childhood with a high success rate and a lot of happy clients precisely because those advertised lists all look the same.
My point is that she advertised and can't really handle it has already been a common problem on the forum. They all say PTSD and Complex Trauma (and every other diagnosis) and yet they have no advanced training and certs related to trauma! So I don't think that in itself is a reason to be so up at arms. Rather, I think Riptide reposted that she was still bothered by this deeply because of something internal that she's working through.

We have most of us had teachers, professors, doctors, and other professionals who want to fill their practice with "Hamburger Helper" clients for a low maintenance practice. They don't want to actually have to "feel" anything too strongly anymore because they don't have much stamina left or they were told that is how you make it 30-40 years through the same career by their mentors.

Rather than spending so much time slamming someone for being a burned out hack, we could focus on Riptide's self-examination, reflection, hope, and new focus on getting well and finding a good T. In order to do that, she needs to look at this from more than her current angle, not necessarily taking my ideas into view, but someone's. And using her time to move through the grief this has caused. Telling the story is part of that. Even that was stuck.

I got her to clarify her stand point and opinion by telling more of her story, which I hope is healing and helps get her unstuck and processing it out, realizing it's not so bad that she can't move on and be okay with finding a new, better T based on what was not TERRIBLE, but not good enough about this one. As long as she makes this T out to be an inhuman monster, she can't empathize at all with her and cannot move forward.

Nuff said.

 

[mamachick]

Muse-very well said and many of my thoughts as well. We have the opportunity to grow from every experience. When shopping for a new therapist, it might be wise to describe what happens in therapy sessions to assure that the new one is competent and experienced in handling this.

I am also not saying that the therapist responded effectively, she clearly was not helpful at all for riptide to come away with these feelings. Riptide said that she dissociated and regressed on other occasions but just cried and when she left felt dizzy and almost fell. The therapist admits that this is beyond her abilities to treat, at least she is aware of this rather than allowing this to continue.

I am also wondering what others who live in the US experiences are with psychiatrists ? I hear others speaking of counseling with psychiatrists, but where I live, psychiatrists do not do any counseling or spend an hour session to treat ptsd. They allow no more than 10 minutes per patient and prescribe medications. I am really wondering if this differs by region in the US or am I misunderstanding others. They ask a few questions about appetite, sleep, and socializing. They observe the patients affect (anxiety, flat, etc) and send them out with prescriptions. This also confuses me about riptides experience as I dont know where she lives, so I dont know the qualifications required.

Again, I think it is really important to take what she said knowing that it has nothing to do with other circumstances in life such as not being adopted.

 

[Powder]

I spent many years being too upset about a bad T experience. I just hope this doesn't stop us, as sufferers, from getting quality care that will help us heal and not loose too many years upset and stuck in that, like I did. I had a bad experience with a psychiatrist who was collecting patients as conquests. Yeah, real neat guy! He was prosecuted and lost his license to practice any medicine in the state.

I spent like 14 years thinking I would be better off without therapy. Now, I have a good therapist, and I feel like my husband and kids have to pay for my stupid mistake of letting emotional parts decide they are too upset to tolerate therapy.

It is not going to click with just anyone because it is a relationship. So, I guess I've had to learn myself, my needs, and then not be shy about searching specifically for the "right one" for me who is a great fit for my trauma type, personality type, and one who, like Riptide said, is not triggering my inner child and causing me to dissociate just by being too controlling or direct.

Brat17, I thinkt this is a great topic, too. Some psychiatrists do counseling as well. But many have specialized in diagnosis and med management, overseeing a patient's care who goes to a Ph.D. psychologist for the actual therapy. I like that system best because I see a psychiatrist as the best diagnostician and able to rule out biologic contributors, such as TBI or sleep disorders. They are really smart. Sometimes that is not what I need. I need a smart T who is also very empathic and, as Riptide said, gentle and pacing things carefully for my readiness but still challenging me in a caring way so that my time is used effectively.

Thank you for seeing that I'm trying my best to help Riptide because I relate to her and don't want her to feel stuck in the hurt/horrified stage without some feedback that might help. I didn't mean that she threatened her T, only that Ts can be afraid, too. It is illogical to me that just because someone says they treat PTSD that means they should have no issues with symptoms. Their belief systems come into play. Some don't believe in DID or MPD or "switching" and if they witness it, they think you are just messing with them. So that in itself would upset them and cause mistrust. We really don't know, in this case, and just know that she didn't leave Riptide on good terms or in a helpful way.

I wanted Riptide to see that this person is fallible, human, and not do the black and white thinking trap. I wanted to free her feet from that trap and let her free to rationalize and move around it. I think that imagining the other person who hurt you and their perspective is hard but necessary to take away the larger than life power that we think they have. This removes the stinger and lets the wound heal.
It is always necessary to process the stuck emotion, not by blocking it but letting it come and thinking through it.
Maybe Anthony has a term for this with the labeling and breaking events down into emotions, thoughts, actions and labeling them accurately to form a narrative. Whatever helps take power away from the hurt and put it back into me, her or the sufferer, then that is helpful for healing.
Muse

 

[mamachick]

Muse I knew that you was trying to help riptide to see another perspective so that she would not be giving her power away and end up giving up on therapists all together and leaving her further stuck. I could see that what you are trying to say is good. Initially, I felt I did not have a clear understanding until some things were clarified. Even then, I can see the importance of not falling into the black and white thinking.

Everybody does not experience things the same way or have the same perceptions. I think this is one of the most important things to understand in situations such as this, and to be ok with it. I have had 2 physicians drop me as a patient this year-Im not for everyone. I could say they were both very unprofessional, but the bottom line is that I was not getting my needs met. One was mad that I got a second opinion. This particular Dr. runs his own practice and if he forbids it, he has that right, and I dont want to be his patient. I know that when it comes to our mental health I am a bit more sensative, or would be under the same circumstances.

Psychiatrists in my area do not listen much. They even have the therapist diagnose and then prescribe meds accordingly.