Ungrateful?

[hushhush]

So this partially goes along with the thread where I asked about how you explain PTSD to someone. (Thank you to everyone who offered their perspective! It really helps me to hear what everyone had to say even if what you do is stay silent.)

I often find myself in situations where I feel "stuck" because of my PTSD. I was trying to explain this to a friend who has a propensity for looking for solutions.

Usually she'll do her best to understand by asking questions. But I see the questions as leading to a moment of advice-giving and that leaves me feeling judged. I start to feel like she thinks that I can "think" my way out of it or take action despite my PTSD symptoms.

So in response I usually send her back more information about PTSD in an attempt to help her understand what I'm going through. Long story short it turns out that she feels that I'm ungrateful for her attempt to help. (I do this with everyone who tries to give me advice for the record.) She feels that I'm trying to prove that I'm right.

I guess from my perspective, how can I feel grateful for feeling judged? What about when the advice that's given is bad advice and makes me feel worse? I feel like in those cases the intention of the person trying to help doesn't matter. As they say, the road to hell was paved with good intentions.

I'm also confused because I don't imagine that I would get so upset about someone not taking my advice. What does it matter to me?

Have you ever had a situation like this where you were accused of being ungrateful? Am I just stubborn (because this really does happen all the time and not just with her)? Is there something I can do to make the communication here better?

 

[Friday]

Some people are like that... If you come to them with a problem, and they give you a solution? If you don't follow it -to the letter- they take it as an insult. Doesn't matter how much you try and explain the slap across their face wasn't a slap across their face, that's how they take it. Shrug. That's their lookout. Mine is that knowing this about them I don't share problems with them.

 

[Nevermore]

)-: hushhush I think this is why I ended up losing friends. It's not an easy thing to explain - I had no idea mysekf before I got it. It's a lot more than what most people think of when they think ptsd.
I have often thought that my own ptsd was made a lot worse by the incomprehension of others! I still feel panicky when I see certain people that just never got it and never will get it.
Everyone wants s quick fix. Of course it would be wonderful if it was possible!!!!!
The friends I remained close to were the kindest and more sensitive ones who had struggled themselves with things not easily understood. I am eternally grateful for the patience and acceptance of the very few that met me where I was - not where they wanted me to be.
It separates out the wolves from the sheep in a way - and in the end thsts a good thing.
I always thought ptsd was just flashbacks nightmares and startle response. I didn't know about the utter despair and ever present fear. I didn't know about that horrible feeling like you've been buried alive... And thd rest!
Your friend just can't imagine what it's like and she's not listening.
I had to step away from people like that. I felt invidated enough without that! It was triggering for me
Back yourself!

 

[Fadeaway]

When people do that, it is a huge trigger for me, because generally, I am not looking for solutions, I am looking for validation. I have had my fair share of conversation that started out with me saying, "I just want you to understand what I am going through." only to be gobsmacked by someone telling me, "No, you just want to be right."

I think I have finally begun to figure out a way to explain it to my husband without causing tension.

I basically explained to him that:

I often need to discuss my issues out loud to help me think clearly and come up with solutions myself. I explained that sometimes I just need a sounding board to work out my own issue, and when he tried to step in with his ideas for solutions, it can leave me feeling disempowered. I told him that even though it may sound like I am complaining about how bad things are, I not only feel better after having someone just listen but verbalising my problems help me see them in a different light leading me to figure out solutions on my own. By being a sounding board for me, you are empowering me to be able to look at my problems from different perspectives.

He took it rather well, and I clarified that if I was looking for him to fix the issue or give me advice, I would specify before hand. Maybe that explanation might work with your friend. You know her better, so variations on the same theme may work better for her.

 

[scout86]

So, what DO you want people to do? Especially people who have a propensity for trying to solve problems?

But I see the questions as leading to a moment of advice-giving and that leaves me feeling judged.

A popular quote on this site is "feelings are not facts". That doesn't mean that feelings don't exist or there's something wrong about having them, or having particular ones, just that they aren't "facts" they are "feelings". So, you can FEEL judged and yet not actually BE judged. Further, you, not your friend, are responsible for your feelings. Other people are not obligated to engineer their behavior in such a way as to produce in you the "feelings" you desire.

Long story short it turns out that she feels that I'm ungrateful for her attempt to help.

Well, you ARE, aren't you? Something other than "grateful", I mean. You don't appreciate her attempt to help, because you don't find it helpful. That is something I'd see as a "fact". She can "feel" about it any way she wants to. You are no more obligated to make her "feel" appreciated for everything she says or does than she is obligated to make you "feel" validated.

I start to feel like she thinks that I can "think" my way out of it or take action despite my PTSD symptoms.

Here's another thought, and it pertains to feeling "stuck" as well. Sometimes we have more choices than we think we do. I don't think you can cure PTSD by simply deciding not to have it. But I DO think once you decide that you can't do something you can't. Not because you can't, but because you've decided you can't. My T suggests combining the word "can't" with the word "yet". "I can't, yet." Another thing he's said, that I particularly like was "you might want to find a better way to think about that." Not that how I WAS thinking about it was "wrong", but rather that there ARE options, I DO have choices, and sometimes it's a good idea to make use of that. So, I would look at "feeling stuck" as something I'm feeling NOW, and maybe something I need to work at finding a way around. Your friend might not really get what you're up up against. Because it is a brain wiring thing to begin with, not a simple choice. But what can be wired can be rewired and you don't rewire it by repeating the same dysfunctional thought patterns.

I'm also confused because I don't imagine that I would get so upset about someone not taking my advice. What does it matter to me?

This could just be an "everyone's different" deal. On the other hand, if you care about someone and think you can see they are suffering and think you have ideas that would help, and think they are asking for your help, and then ignoring you, it seems like it would have to get frustrating eventually. If you don't care about them, it wouldn't matter. If you do? It might. If this is happening with a variety of people (and sometimes it's easy to go with all or none thinking and feel like "everyone is against me" etc), but if it's happening with a lot of people, either you're surrounding yourself with people who are very similar in that way, or it's got more to do with you than them. Is there are reason people think you're looking for their advice when you're not?

 

[hushhush]

I agree about rewiring the brain. And I think, "I can't, yet," is an excellent way to look at things. And still it doesn't change the fact that, "I can't, now." As you said, both of our feelings are our experiences and inherently valid all by themselves.

So I'm trying to reason through... what is the solution here?

Naturally I go to openly discussing the feelings. I imagine that would start with me saying, "I'm feeling like you don't get it and I feel like I'm being judged."

I'd also imagine she'd say something like, "I don't get it."

And that's where I lose a clue on how to resolve things in a way that allows me to feel heard/understood and allows her to feel helpful.

So, what DO you want people to do? Especially people who have a propensity for trying to solve problems?...

To listen. To empathize. I told her this but by that point in the conversation emotions were already rolling so she took badly. She mentioned earlier in the conversation only being able to say, "that sucks," so many times. (Which for me is confusing. I can say, "that sucks," forever lol)

Well, you ARE, aren't you? Something other than "grateful", I mean.

Yes. I'm not grateful for advice that seems pushy and implies that I'm not trying hard enough. I guess what I was taking issue with was how it felt as though my bid for empathy was turned around onto me as an accusation.

Is there are reason people think you're looking for their advice when you're not?

If I had to take a guess I'd say it's because I seek empathy. And I think people misread that as wanting advice. Maybe sometimes even I misunderstand and think I want advice (don't we all want to escape the crappy feelings that come with PTSD and to feel like we have a sense of power over it?).

What I really want is for people to be curious and to empathize as best they can. I don't need them to experience it. But just to relate and express sympathy. PTSD makes it hard to form relationships and easy to isolate.

I believe that I communicated all of this to her already - about wanting to be listened to and empathy. She seems to stick to, "I don't get it." I guess I feel like she doesn't have to "get it" to empathize.

So to answer your question I think people think that because I come to them first and I come with a problem. I don't actually ask for advice (sometimes I may rhetorically but not normally). I think I do have a lot of people around me though who are problem-solvers and go-getters.

 

[scout86]

And that's where I lose a clue on how to resolve things in a way that allows me to feel heard/understood and allows her to feel helpful.

I want to start by saying, I'm REALLY not good at this stuff!

But, being heard and not understood is an option, isn't it? And, perhaps, "hearing" all by itself can be helpful. Like I said, I'm not good at this. I tend to think that if I can't fix something, I'm a failure. I'm working on the idea that some stuff I can't fix (for someone else) but perhaps it's useful to just hang in there with them and let them know I value them anyway. Perhaps the two of you, maybe together, can re-evaluate what you each mean by "a solution".

She mentioned earlier in the conversation only being able to say, "that sucks," so many times.

I can relate to that! If I can't "fix" something, I experience it as a failure and a potentially dangerous one. (That's "just me". It's part of the "how I got here" story. Probably doesn't cause the same level of distress to most people.) But, I can easily see how, if one thing "doesn't work" she might feel the need to come up with new and better ideas. And maybe she doesn't HAVE any. But maybe you don't actually NEED any. So you could let her off the hook by saying that.

I guess what I was taking issue with was how it felt as though my bid for empathy was turned around onto me as an accusation.

With the right person, that might be worth actually talking about. What ARE they feeling? Are they really frustrated with you and thinking you're just not trying? Or is that you, thinking that's what they're thinking? Or some combination? I don't know the answer, but maybe, with a real friend, you could actually hash this out and you both might learn something.

f I had to take a guess I'd say it's because I seek empathy. And I think people misread that as wanting advice.

From what I hear, that's a common problem, even among people who don't have problems. ("Feelings" aren't my best thing and I'm not sure I actually do "empathy". So, this is a place where I'm going to "hear you" and probably not understand. I'm ok with that though, because it happens a lot.

I believe that I communicated all of this to her already

This isn't going to be helpful but one of the other things my T famously says is "communication is what the hearer hears, not what the speaker intends". I'm not quite sure where your friend is coming from with this "I don't get it" business. I really wouldn't expect her to get it. Actually, I know more people who THINK they get it and don't, than who realize they really don't get it. So she doesn't get it, so what? The fact that she "doesn't get it" doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I don't "get" quantum mechanics either, but that doesn't mean it doesn't, potentially, exist. If she's actually thinking that nothing in the world exists outside her own experience and understanding........well I have news for her. But, maybe that's not what she actually thinks either.

I think I do have a lot of people around me though who are problem-solvers and go-getters.

If these people are willing to learn, you might have an opportunity to both teach and learn. It sounds like there might be good intentions on both sides and just failure to communicate. The only solution I've ever found for that it to keep chipping away at it until you get somewhere. People who don't think ideas and views of reality exist outside their own experience run in to trouble in all kinds of ways, not just dealing with a friend with PTSD. It's a big world and we all have our own road map of reality. (Another quote from my T. "We all have our own road maps of reality. They are mostly different. None of them are 'reality', they are all only road maps.")

 

[Recovery4Me]

Awesome discussion! I am really taken aback by how well everyone is sharing and offering different perspectives in kindness.

 

[Stickler]

I often need to discuss my issues out loud to help me think clearly and come up with solutions myself. I explained that sometimes I just need a sounding board to work out my own issue, and when he tried to step in with his ideas for solutions, it can leave me feeling disempowered. I told him that even though it may sound like I am complaining about how bad things are, I not only feel better after having someone just listen but verbalising my problems help me see them in a different light leading me to figure out solutions on my own...

Eee! Precisely!

 

[Purplemunchkin]

What I really want is for people to be curious and to empathize as best they can. I don't need them to experience it. But just to relate and express sympathy.

I am a supporter, so see things slightly differently. This is my take on the above:

I have learned not to be curious. Do you really want someone (who isn't your T) to keep asking questions, that potentially get deeper and more personal? When I did this to hubby in the early days (before I found this forum or either of us had really learnt about PTSD) it would stress him badly, and even triggered him a couple of times. Now when he wants to talk, I let him say what he needs/wants to without pressing for more information.

I don't want to empathise, and nor do I believe I could. I can't possibly imagine the trauma or the repercussions that he has experienced and felt, and I don't really want to try. I don't see how that would be advantageous for either of us. I think that is where this forum is good as there are people who truly do understand.

You say you don't need them to experience it, only to relate. But without the experience I believe there is a major limit to the amount of relating that can be done. My frame of reference is so far removed from the traumas my husband has experienced that I don't really know how to relate.

Sympathy and patience, a shoulder to cry on and ears to listen. Those I can offer in abundance (well only two ears, but you know what I mean).

Can you encourage your friend to do their own independent research? Then it's not you proving anything, it's them learning and coming to their own realisation that what you say is true?

 

[scout86]

Where's that "Superlative Like" button when you need it? :mad:

Do you really want someone (who isn't your T) to keep asking questions, that potentially get deeper and more personal?

@Purplemunchkin , thank you for that! At least from my point of view. I actually don't even want my T doing that and he doesn't. He has a more indirect way of bringing stuff up and then offers me the opportunity to feel safe enough to talk about stuff if I want to. (Which I generally don't. Yet, anyway. But we're making progress in spite of me. :confused:) With someone else? If they start asking questions and give me the feeling they are demanding information, I'm leaving Dodge. (Which is an American expression for running away, for those of you from elsewhere in the world.) Doesn't matter what I rationally "know" their reasons to be. In fact, most of the time, that goes places where "rationally knowing" something doesn't even come up.

 

[hushhush]

Do you really want someone (who isn't your T) to keep asking questions, that potentially get deeper and more personal

This is where I differ from scout86. I tend to lean into wanting people to know more about me, even if it's traumatic and in the moment brings up anxiety. That just makes me feel more desperately this need to be recognized and understood. It's as if my soul wants a witness.

You say you don't need them to experience it, only to relate. But without the experience I believe there is a major limit to the amount of relating that can be done.

I guess what I'm expecting is that they can imagine themselves in my shoes and couple that with what studies show is happening biologically and with what other people with PTSD say the experience feels like. For me it's easy to place myself "in" situations that people tell me about and feel all the feelings associated with that. Which then allows me to empathize.

Can you encourage your friend to do their own independent research? Then it's not you proving anything, it's them learning and coming to their own realisation that what you say is true?

I could certainly ask. I'm not sure how helpful it would be now that we've created a communication mess lol :) But maybe in the future with other people.