Unhealthy Church Part 2: Am I A Divisive Person?

[woundedmind]

This church is non- denominational, no other parishes. They are well
connected in the community becau...

A city that is not friendly to Christians? This is in the United States? I didn't think it could be possible unless we're talking Salt Lake City, which I still think of as being a Christian spin-off and maybe San Francisco, which I would consider not so much unfriendly to Christians as open minded to other possibilities that they don't give a real preference to them, which they are used to.

My own recommendation - get away from any religion that requires you to change yourself to be something else other than you are, that uses shame and guilt to manipulate you. As for Bible study, if something sounds like bullshit, feel free to dispute it. When people try to offer poorly-supported information as scientific truth, they go agains the concept of accepting on faith. The people that require everyone else in the world to accept their religion as absolute fact because of poor science are quite poisonous IMO. When they realize its all about faith, then they really can't require others to believe because faith is more personal, or at least that is how I see it, and everyone can have a failing in faith - and if they have none its no use to trying to beat them over the head to get it.

Anywho, religion can be really divisive. Those who say they have the one true answer usually don't.

 

[Ivan the Elder]

The people that require everyone else in the world to accept their religion as absolute fact because of poor science are quite poisonous IMO.

That is the truth. Science and God are entirely unconnected and will remain that way. Science does not and cannot prove anything about belief of any sort. People very commonly confuse belief with knowledge. One is free to believe anything at all, knowledge is that which is available to all without any requirement to believe anything.

 

[halflifeguy]

Justmehere - You nailed it with just the word, "hypocrisy" in the first post. Your story makes me sick to hear because they were not behaving in any christian way, but behaving like a cult. 'Proud to hear you walked away, good riddance to them!

"My therapist says I'm good at getting myself scapegoated"
Yeah, me too. It's almost always because I tend to deal with realities and facts, I can be socially clueless, and don't pander to social contracts or self-serving delusional realities that are abundant in our culture and religions. When I see a line crossed, I'll call out others on the issue and often they use scapegoating me as their knee-jerk reaction, especially if they feel their place in the pecking order of a social group is affected. After the flashback pain from the scapegoating dies down, I am comforted by knowing the truth is they are flawed too, did wrong and I'm morally and technically right. I guess having people support my position, and some support the other person, is division too. But that's just a normal part of life; politics, society, sports... etc.

 

[Ivan the Elder]

It's almost always because I tend to deal with realities and facts, I can be socially clueless, and don't pander to social contracts or self-serving delusional realities that are abundant in our culture and religions.

Sounds to me you are an Aspie type like me. Us Asperger people don't do well with the social niceties that people use to tell each other "white" lies. Like when somebody asks you "How are you?" and we tell them the truth. They don't know how to deal with that, it throws them totally off kilter. It can put a conversation well off into nowhere land. They do not understand pure logic and the concept of always telling people the real truth. Then they start trying to figure out how what you just said would apply if it was a "normal" saying the same thing and that just runs it all into the weeds in a hurry.

 

[Knak]

You have all my sympathy and compassion. Many become pastors because they think it gives them power, prestige, godliness, that they don't have and think they are looked to for wisdom or revered, and some fall for it. People attain power because they tell others they are powerful and naive people believe them. I know one thing for sure and that is that nobody is better than you in God's eyes.
You are right your inner child tried to control the situation instead of you, an adult. I agree you should write everything down with dates and exact words, etc. I did that in situations I knew were wrong for proof down the road and it gave me faith and security in myself.
Just today I heard a Bible teacher say he thought about 80% going to church are not really Christians, i.e., true believers. I have heard pastors say they were not true Christians when they became pastors.
I just left a church I served extensively for ten years because insecure bigshots bullied me and I wasn't intimidated so they influenced others to purposely dislike and intimidate me, but three out of 200 knew the truth and were kind.

 

[Knak]

Sounds to me you are an Aspie type like me. Us Asperger people don't do well with the social niceties that...

I didn't know that was a symptom but always felt I might have Aspergers.

 

[Ivan the Elder]

Asperger's Syndrome is extremely common. Us Aspies tend to think the the "normies" are the odd ones. They just call themselves the "normals" because there are more of them than us. About 1/3 of engineers are confirmed Asperger types and on average among Aspies they/we have a higher IQ than normies. <smirk>

The latest version of the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Psychiatry), version 5, has now classed us as belonging in the Autism spectrum. There are a very lot of people including psychiatrists that do not agree with that. While some things do match there are many that do not fit. The fact that your nose is sniffling does NOT mean you have a cold. Same with the way that poor social skills does NOT mean you are autistic. Besides, our social skills work just fine with each other. We are simply different. We don't tell lies much although we can, but it is way easier to just tell the truth. You then don't have to remember what the lie was. Honesty is a big feature of Aspies. Another one is the poor ability to recall peoples faces, known as Prosopagnosia. I have it pretty strong. That actually is a small mental defect where the cortex is poorly connected to the right fusiform gyrus in the brain. However, the left brain is physically larger than the right by about five to ten percent in Aspies and that most likely has something to do with the much higher logic skills. Most computer programmers are Aspies, especially female programmers. It is a place that us aspies do really well. Here is a free Windows app you can download from me that I wrote to calculate bolt hole circles: (and yes, it is guaranteed to be clean. It comes from my own highly secure server.)

Link Removed

They think that Asperger's runs about five times more frequent in males than females but females are better at hiding it. I think the next woman I will try to find to live with should be an Aspie.

 

[Ivan the Elder]

Just today I heard a Bible teacher say he thought about 80% going to church are not really Christians, i.e., true believers.

I tend to agree with that some, but maybe not that high. There are a lot of people that think along the lines "well, if God does exist I should be covered", so they attend church. Personally, I truly do believe in God. He brought me back to life when I was very far along that road to true death. I won't call it a miracle but inside I think it's close enough to being one. That is plenty enough for me to think he really does exist. It isn't the only reason but it is the strongest. Even if I am wrong and there is no God it is very helpful and good to follow God's Word anyway. Where the problems arise is when people like the ones that are the reason for this thread pretend to be true Christians and use that social power to hurt others. That is as far away as it is possible to get from following God's Word. Intentionally hurting others is evil.

 

[Knak]

I tend to agree with that some, but maybe not that high. There are a lot of people that think along the lin...

There are verses that spell out true faith. Only God knows their heart. We forgive because we are forgiven, however people who are raised in fear or abuse may not be able to get past their pain and repeat it as an adult, but can't admit it to themselves because the pain is too deep in their brain to heal. It's good to stay away from them.

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[Powder]

I'm saddened about this ill treatment, Justmehere. I don't think this is anything more than a huge, traumatizing rejection from the father figure of a social group. Why he is rejecting you and also trying to isolate you from a new church group and force you back for further abuse from them illustrates through actions that indeed he and whomever has his ear at this group are motivated by elitism and power abuse. It is entirely possible that they feel threatened by you, which means, they feared some kind of expose.

In my experience there are sick, pedophilic and narcissist type abusers in all social groups because these power-hungry types need a group to manipulate and exploit. My experience involves growing up in a highly abusive home. My parents were medical and then they chose to go full time missionary oversees. Prior to that, they started their own church. The pastors of every church I grew up in was far sicker than anyone else in the group. Many Axis II Personality Disordered people choose to become a leader of a cult, church, or other group, like Scouts, or whatever group they can lead. In many cases, they are trying to sublimate their dominating personality, channeling their love of power into something positive. They do not realize they have an actual personality disorder. Thus, if they clash with you, of course, 'you' are blamed as the 'problem.' Little do they know they are their own problem.

"Risk" is an interesting word choice for this pastor. What is exactly being risked here? Division within a church group? A good leader knows a lot about how to manage groups in conflict, and 'less is usually more.' Groups are always experiencing conflict and division. It is normal. Churches typically split over issues that they feel passionately about either progressively or traditionally. Whole denominations have split off due to their stance on issues such as Marriage Equality (they termed "gay marriage" back then; even the term they use shows their stance.)

Individuals typically do not pose this level of "risk." So I would consider that you are not likely the "risk" at all. You were only someone this pastor or his main financial supporters wanted disempowered. They "gaslighted" you with another church and the local police authorities.

There is no other litmus test for a Narcissist that this guy hasn't met 100%.

1. gaslighting, with multiple groups outside the group
2. isolating
3. name-calling/smear-campaigning behind your back
4. passive aggression
5. labeling, but without transparency as to what earned the label
6. false appeal to authority (use of a holy scripture to spiritually abuse someone over whom he has authority; aka, if he were a therapist or Dr. you could sue for ethics violations).

The list goes on, but the above is enough to see that no matter what, this is an abusive type of leadership.

You have every right to feel upset by this behavior, but it would be good to see it for what it is and move away and move on. Lesson learned, very painful.

This is also why those in a church need to watch how its leadership treats people. If they are treating anyone as disposable or unacceptable (except if they be a real threat, such as a pedophile, in which case bolt the doors!), they should also leave that group.

Don't be a bystander. Don't just read this thread and act like you don't see this kind of bullying going on in your own churches.

 

[Danyel Lee Gaede]

The church called.

They told me I am a divisive person. This is the one sin some types of Christian...

As a former Minister I have to say this so called church is way off base. Only one way to shun a believer and that is if they are confronted about the sin first, then no change confronted with two or more witnesses and then infront of the church and if still no change from the sin then they are to be shunned until they change there ways but it only happens one out of several million times in real churches becuase the first thing is to show with the Love of Christ. JW's are the only ones i know of that use this method a lot and they are not real Christians. God bless you brother and maybe you need to find another type of worship place i woul;d suggest Baptist or four square if you have one of them near your place. You can write me anytime you want with questions and i can give you many verses to help you if you would like to confront this minister who has wroinged you.

 

[Ivan the Elder]

There are many good denominations. That isn't the problem. Christians all believe in the same God and Holy Trinity. The problem is, as always, people. When I decided to return to church last year I sat with the Reverend and had a long talk. I was and still am at a point where I do not trust people in general but I do trust those in the church. It is just how my mind is working now. When I said this to the Reverend he told me: "Remember, sinners go to church". That was upsetting to me but very unfortunately true. We are all sinners but I try to keep my sins inside my head only. Not all do that.