virtuous victimhood correlated with dark triad personality

grit

Not Active
This is interesting post...
I read few, actually a lot of the response s but not all.

I wonder few things that are said:
Labels are culture based and hardly objective across humanity. Research results often change when new technology or new knowledge is found.
Reaction to childhood trauma to get cluster b is not surprising actually should be expected imho. NPD is so vilified but yet probably we would not have this technology and million other things if everyone follows the rules of the day. Most research on this from what I have seen they do not have ndp subjects but use more theoritcal basis.

Not having basic trust doesn't mean not having intelligence or wisdom or compassion or empathy...it just means we do not have one thing ...and it entails harder way of gaining what we need.

I am summarizing what I read and digested so far.

I think probably IMHO the most challenging outcome of big trauma is losing subjective self and seeing only how others see us but even then one can learn or become aware or keep living with that point view disability. I really love human resilience in the face of intimate adversary.

Knowing your core issue is trust, I would ask what are your positive compensation to make you survive so long?
It is like losing a leg in a war, did you build your upper muscle better? Or being blind but having strong textile? Do you know that? And can you accept that for now until new knowledge or experience comes along or have hope?

All these statements are my opinions here I have no back up data. What I learned is that it is not what broke but how creatively we mend it or look at it to ponder mending.. hence we found each other here.

Extremely valuable discussion.
 

OliveJewel

MyPTSD Pro
I think that trust and love are worthwhile goals.
Opinion
as to the last sentence, Idk.
Different opinion which is completely understandable from a ptsd perspective.

It is not wrong to disagree. Emotional manipulation takes it’s toll. The words “love and trust” can be used to wound and control. Turning away can help someone feel safer and stronger.
is losing subjective self and seeing only how others see us but even then one can learn or become aware or keep living with that point view disability. I really love human resilience in the face of intimate adversary.
How much do you think luck plays a part in learning self-awareness and self-forgiveness?
 

PreciousChild

MyPTSD Pro
Reaction to childhood trauma to get cluster b is not surprising actually should be expected imho. NPD is so vilified but yet probably we would not have this technology and million other things if everyone follows the rules of the day.
I agree. I was thinking today about primary narcissism. There's no way humanity would survive if we weren't born narcissistic and entitled to everything. When we're babies, we demand all of our needs be met despite not contributing or reciprocating help in any way to the provider. Now that's narcissistic entitlement! I think empathy is when we see the other as someone who is equally entitled and then there is give and take. But I think that's only possible when you get your needs met as a baby. It seems to me that narcissism that is a disorder is the person getting stuck in that phase of narcissistic entitlement and can never therefore develop and mature to meet others' needs.

But as to your point, I do think you're right. I was reading about how there are "celebrity" narcissists and "career" narcissists. Celebrity narcissists really only want to get attention and manage their image. But the career narcissist wants attention for doing something great. I think that probably some of the greatest feats of mankind were done by the latter.

Not having basic trust doesn't mean not having intelligence or wisdom or compassion or empathy...it just means we do not have one thing ...and it entails harder way of gaining what we need.
Hmm. That's a perspective that I hadn't considered. But my feeling is that trust is not one attribute of many, but something more fundamental and not replaceable.

I think probably IMHO the most challenging outcome of big trauma is losing subjective self and seeing only how others see us but even then one can learn or become aware or keep living with that point view disability.
That's so profound. Yeah, I think that in either the cptsd person or narcissist, we sacrifice the light inside that sees out onto everything and try to replace it with external shadows that we only have a vague idea about. We learn to invest more in the shadows than the internal light that is perfect just as it is. Something I can relate to the narcissist about is that I am constantly wondering what the other wants, so that I can appease and be safe. That's kind of their thing too. I don't know that I can accept that as my forever way of being. I want to believe that I can heal and embody myself fully or as much as I can.

Knowing your core issue is trust, I would ask what are your positive compensation to make you survive so long?
It is like losing a leg in a war, did you build your upper muscle better?
Again, interesting perspective. Is trust and love like a leg? Biologically, we can't grow back a lost leg, but can we grow back trust and love, or is that biologically impossible after a certain age? That has always been a question in my mind.

Different opinion which is completely understandable from a ptsd perspective.
I think that it is really important for traumatized people to say that people can disagree, that we can each have our own perspective without endangering another's. I feel comfortable in what I believe in. You don't have to agree, though that would be nice. I think the narcissist's insistence on their being only one valid perspective (their's) come from an utter fragility of self that is constantly feeling threatened and therefore difference must be eradicated.
 

OliveJewel

MyPTSD Pro
There's no way humanity would survive if we weren't born narcissistic and entitled

I don’t think this is debated. I think it’s called child development. But beyond that, have you heard the term “healthy narcissism” as applied to adults? I heard it recently and it helped me with discernment. Because black and white terms can be too seductive for coping.

“So and So is a narcissist.” “So and so has narcissistic behavior.” Narcissistic people using the label to gaslight others. It can be overwhelming. For me it was helpful to consider “healthy narcissism.” Which maybe could also be called self care?

Not to get into the trap of eliminating all narcissism but rather noticing if it is hurting myself and my relationships with my loved ones.
 

PreciousChild

MyPTSD Pro
I don’t think this is debated. I think it’s called child development. But beyond that, have you heard the term “healthy narcissism” as applied to adults? I heard it recently and it helped me with discernment. Because black and white terms can be too seductive for coping.

“So and So is a narcissist.” “So and so has narcissistic behavior.” Narcissistic people using the label to gaslight others. It can be overwhelming. For me it was helpful to consider “healthy narcissism.” Which maybe could also be called self care?

Not to get into the trap of eliminating all narcissism but rather noticing if it is hurting myself and my relationships with my loved ones.
Yes, I've heard the term "healthy narcissism". I see the virtue in embracing that term. It's okay to invest energy into yourself. You can do that in a "healthy" way without negating anyone else or being delusional. I like that.
 

grit

Not Active
@PreciousChild
I like how dedicated you are to grow and learn and become more of you...we do not stop that until we die.
However, it is so easy to get lost in the box of culture and its societal value system.
And I would ask again...

Imho, language is useful but also limiting. Have you heard about qualia...the feeling that no one can tell you exactly what it feels to know a feeling. It is like describing orgasm none can tell another the depth of exactly same orgasm...trust is level, spectrum, and in context...most humans we have some times and have not other times but we can't compare...so what is troubling you now that you want trust in certainty?

Just wondering.
 

PreciousChild

MyPTSD Pro
@PreciousChild
I like how dedicated you are to grow and learn and become more of you...we do not stop that until we die.
However, it is so easy to get lost in the box of culture and its societal value system.
And I would ask again...

Imho, language is useful but also limiting. Have you heard about qualia...the feeling that no one can tell you exactly what it feels to know a feeling. It is like describing orgasm none can tell another the depth of exactly same orgasm...trust is level, spectrum, and in context...most humans we have some times and have not other times but we can't compare...so what is troubling you now that you want trust in certainty?

Just wondering.
Hmmm. I don't think there has to be certainty, but I feel like there is a basic sense of trust that many people have who grow up with healthy parents that I do not have. I'm not sure we're on the same page about how we see trust. It seems you think that it is socially constructed and therefore interchangeable with other values, as well as cognitive. I feel trust or distrust as a "qualia" as I think I understand the term. I also think that trust is a deeply ingrained need, though the way this may be expressed from culture to culture may be shaped by social conditions.

As I said in my post discussing the Betrayal Trauma theory, some psychologists are saying that the fundamental harm that cptsd inflicts is to trust, even more so or alongside the instinct to survive since in a baby those are one and the same. I believe that we're born with a sense of trust that our providers will give us what we need and will be a guide to the external world. When our trust is violated, I believe that our sense of ourselves and our world are crippled in ways that are immeasurable. To not be able to trust reality - we would have to spend a life time vigilant against uncertainty.
 

Rosebud

MyPTSD Pro
I really like this post, it speaks to me of traumatic growth:

Knowing your core issue is trust, I would ask what are your positive compensation to make you survive so long?
It is like losing a leg in a war, did you build your upper muscle better? Or being blind but having strong textile? Do you know that? And can you accept that for now until new knowledge or experience comes along or have hope?
and
What I learned is that it is not what broke but how creatively we mend it or look at it to ponder mending.. hence we found each other here.
^^ because far be it from our individual accoomplishments which most of society emphasizes, it is our wounds and hearts that make us truly unique. And where it leads us.
Not having basic trust doesn't mean not having intelligence or wisdom or compassion or empathy...it just means we do not have one thing ...and it entails harder way of gaining what we need.
^^ I really like this too. And it may not be bl-or-white; rather the particular unique struggles.
It is not wrong to disagree. Emotional manipulation takes it’s toll. The words “love and trust” can be used to wound and control. Turning away can help someone feel safer and stronger.
^^ Thank you @OliveJewel . But actually, those connotations are lies. Not actually love or trust. Therefore true love and trust are worthwhile goals, as @PreciousChild hopes to achieve/ is achieving. For me, the safety (not sure I'd call it strength; for me strength is independence and not revealing anything) is just avoidance. Not really safe so much as self-limiting.
Something I can relate to the narcissist about is that I am constantly wondering what the other wants, so that I can appease and be safe. That's kind of their thing too
^^This is also hallmark of fearful-avoidant (disorganized) attachment, without any PD present. It is malleable and changeable with internal work and practise. Do you think it relates?
Yes, I've heard the term "healthy narcissism". I see the virtue in embracing that term. It's okay to invest energy into yourself. You can do that in a "healthy" way without negating anyone else or being delusional. I like that.
I think trauma can leave some people feeling normal self-care is spoiling or narcissistic. But without caring for yourself you can't continue caring for others. And if they care for you they don't want you to burn yourself out, or lose you (die), either.
To not be able to trust reality - we would have to spend a life time vigilant against uncertainty.
^^ I actually think this is spot on. In that, if we couldn't trust what should have been trustworthy, there is little emotional security, without much work and hard lessons. 'A lifetime vigilant against uncertainty' is totally 100% me. Uncertainty and potential tragedy, awaiting around the corner. (Not pretty, but true.)
 
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PreciousChild

MyPTSD Pro
This has a preacher feel to it
I'm not sure if that's good or bad. lol.

I actually think this is spot on. In that, if we couldn't trust what should have been trustworthy, there is little emotional security, without much work and hard lessons. 'A lifetime vigilant against uncertainty' is totally 100% me. Uncertainty and potential tragedy, awaiting around the corner. (Not pretty, but true.)
I've been thinking so much about trust. I'm wondering if that's something I gave to my son, distrust about the world because that has been my worldview. Obviously, the world does present uncertainty and threats sometimes, but the healthy person isn't preoccupied with it unless they have a reason to be. I remember watching a Twilight Zone episode in which a woman who was raped was being driven home from the hospital by her father. They were both traumatized and hypervigilant. All of a sudden, a man crosses the crosswalk in front of them, and she recognizes him as her rapist. Her father looked at her and asked if she was sure. She was like, definitely yes! So he follows the guy, and after a lot of wrestling and difficulties, the dad kills the guy. He gets back to the car and starts driving again. During the next few minutes, she points to several more men as her "rapist", for sure. She looked so fearful and genuinely convinced they were her attacker. The father is stunned. I feel like the distrust I got as a child definitely predisposed me to seeing things as distrustful in the world when perhaps they were not. I want to be able to restore trust as a default way of being, and be able to let distrustful things slide off my back more.
 

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