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Waiting To Decay

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@Sludge I feel ya. Was attached to RCT-1 Marines and realized I should have been a Marine. Still I'm proud to have served with them and wore the RCT-1 patch as my combat patch. 2 of my closest friends today are/were Marines.. I only speak with 1 person from my unit. A female who without her "motherly love" I don't know if I would have made it mentally.
 
I will integrate all these quotes at the end, but first I need to redirect certain specifics:

You are right with regards to boot camp, they do program us for instinctive discipline, and do change us from being a civilian to a military person, but there is a definite line in the sand and most of us know where that stops.

Using the word "program" is extremely misleading and in pretty much every what perceived in a derogatory manner. A 'programmed' individual is only capable of doing what the programming allows. A soldier is adaptive and able to adjust fire whenever and where ever they find themselves (or -selves). So, I would be careful when using that word in any context, because I have learned that it is never perceived in a good way.
A soldier is trained to:
1. Identify
2. Interpret
3. React
These are not programmed actions. The are actually basic instincts that all people have and can be observed in the animal kingdom daily. The military has learned over the years how to hone these aspects through redundant training.

When we experience a trauma or life threatening event, our body is shocked. Most people over time will adjust to this and the trauma becomes a bad experience or memory, this is usually helped by therapy or just talking about it. For civilians, well they can generally adjust quite easily, but for a veteran, the very next day there might be another such trauma or two, or more, and the next day more.

Trauma happens to each and every one of us daily, and whether it is 'life threatening' depends on the person and their environment. Some of us have spouses that if we forget to take out the trash we believe it is life threatening. Whereas, in combat after we lose are virginity during that first engagement we no longer perceive taking fire as life threatening, but get angry because our AAR (after action report) will take 2 pages rather than one.
The difference with a Veteran is that once we come home everyone tells use continuously that we are no longer soldiers, and in the beginning we believe them. Which causes us to deny that part of our life under the auspices that it is not compatible to our new way of life. I say, "Why?"
We are soldiers and in truth always will be.

So, my question is why cannot we redirect our training? and still be soldiers without the uniform? Trauma is one of the many things we were trained to deal with, right?

One of my main points is that we forget how long it has taken us to get to this point. It isn't overnight and reintegration into the next phase of our lives will not be overnight. I don't think that a reintegration training to become a civilian will work, but we need to remember that was the first step to us becoming military.

Reintegration is difficult. In my personal experience it was because I tried to stop being what I was and forget that whole part of my life rather than trying to adapt or merge the two together. The biggest reason this is extremely difficult is because we do not have the support structure surrounding us in the civilian world the same way we did when we were being integrated into the military. It makes a big difference.
 
I separated my post so that the one would not be lengthy and boring. (or maybe I was having Powerpoint flashbacks! hee-hee)

The three quotes in my previous post revolved around:
Program
Trauma
Reintegration

The direct statement is this:
Why can you not take your training (programming) of Identify, Interpret, React. Direct it towards your Trauma/trigger in a manner of Identify what the issue is, Interpret it in the respects of threat/ NO threat, and React accordingly. One of the issues that makes this difficult is that in the military this happened instantly without thought, however back home we have to think about it. The methods we would have used overseas are not acceptable practices at home (sometimes I wish they were lol). So, we have to train ourselves to slow down the process that we were trained to do so that we can identify those triggers/traumas that we need to adapt to and be able to react in a manner that deals with the issue. The kicker being that are chosen reaction needs to be repetitive and capable of integration into our present lifestyle.
 
Lets change the word 'Program' to 'Condition'. We are conditioned to do a particular role. We are all (for me soldier's) first up, we all know how to fire and move, we all know how to scan our arc's etc, we all shave in the morning, we all dress smartly, etc. A policeman is the same.

You get a Policeman after 20 years of service, and he will be programmed differently too.

Why can you not take your training (programming) of Identify, Interpret, React. Direct it towards your Trauma/trigger in a manner of Identify what the issue is, Interpret it in the respects of threat/ NO threat, and React accordingly. One of the issues that makes this difficult is that in the military this happened instantly without thought, however back home we have to think about it.

You can mate, but you would need to get everyone when diagnosed with PTSD and put them on a 12 month intensive program. You see, with boot camp, you lived and breathed it. You were broken down and turned into a military person.

Think about it. If you took a veteran, put them in an isolated area and had someone with them 24/7 guiding them, it would work. When they opened their eyes up at dawn, someone would tell them to lay back down. When they went to shave, tell them not to, when they reacted to a stressful situation, guide them the right way. It would work. But we don't have the manpower to do this.

Now if you have a good therapist and a good psych, in 40 years, seeing the psych every three months, you might have some idea on how to deal with things properly. But there are so many outside influences which upset the apple cart; however, during military training, nothing interferes.

Just my opinion.

I believe when people return from overseas they should be deployed to a three month long adjustment program.

They should be locked up each night and introduced slowly. Visits from family members, lectures, visits to shopping malls, etc, etc. Each day a debrief from a therapist. This adjustment program would work for most I believe.
 
In reading your last two post OIF2Vet, I will be chewing on that for a few days.;)As a Nam vet we had nothing!!! Except being called NUT JOBS, if we thought of asking for help. So most of us did nothing, we learned to live with and cover up what we now call PTSD.........To the point years and years later I had to accept (and did not want to) that I had PTSD. So I had been dealing with it since leaving Nam in Oct 1970. ETS Army on 6 Jan 1972.

My point being I think we did what you suggest. (somehow) However, add in the fact my basic training was in 1969 (Army) and we where taught to kill, over and over and over. What's the point of the bayonet for men? To Kill!!!! So I have no idea how or what basic training was like after lets say 1972.....I guess I could be called Old Army!:) I even have an RA number:eek:....DI's would still knock the shit out of you, if you needed it.

So how much does the type/kind of basic training we got have to do with it??? I was fully trained to kill and ready for it. (programed) In Nam I went into the dark side......Like a baby duck takes to water........And I was f*cking good at it!!!

Please continue your writing.......I makes me think and that can open a door or two.......

J R
 
Hello again, gentlemen & gentleladies ;)
Lets change the word 'Program' to 'Condition'. We are conditioned to do a particular role.
Same thing, ime, language subtleties aside.

Think about it. If you took a veteran, put them in an isolated area and had someone with them 24/7 guiding them, it would work. When they opened their eyes up at dawn, someone would tell them to lay back down. When they went to shave, tell them not to, when they reacted to a stressful situation, guide them the right way. It would work. But we don't have the manpower to do this.
Not sure about other people, but from at least personal experience I think that has quite a potential to work. Not necessarily time consuming even, the beginning stages. More taking someone who knows what they're doing, and with quite saintly patience for all the 'temper' issues in the meantime. Analytic. Cutting through nonsense. Strict. Cool headed enough. Don't know there's enough command type guys out there for that, possibley back to your 'don't have enough manpower to do this'. On another hand I'm rather hopeful, where is will there can be a path.
They should be locked up each night and introduced slowly. Visits from family members, lectures, visits to shopping malls, etc, etc. Each day a debrief from a therapist. This adjustment program would work for most I believe.

Yeah, got me thinking. Debrief, all good. Full on session = too f*cking overwhelming. Debriefs are doable. So basically good thinking right there.

(Hopefully this comment makes sense. I'm still so fail at expressing a lot of things processed in emotions/kinetic sensations in words. TLDR liking this post helluva lot.).
 
I'm not quite sure what BCT is like these days. I'm assuming they have more of an urban warfare type of training now. When I was in it was peace time and a lot of the training was geared around jungle combat. 9/11 happened when I was in AIT. Even a lot of my pre-deployment training went out the window when we actually got there. As far as DI's whoopin on recruits they couldn't personally touch us, but would task out other recruits to teach one another a lesson. I remember once after hand to hand one of my DI's came up to me and told me to take care of an issue he had with another recruit. They set us up in a hand to hand type fashion and let me go to town on the dude till I choked him out.. So they found ways around that at least when I was there. I hear it's quite a bit different now from when I was in too so IDK what it's like now. I've heard rumors about stress cards? lmao!!! I hope that's not true..
 
Maybe if they had some kind of program to have bi-weekly or weekly debriefings would help. But I'm not sure. Personally it took me many years to even go to the VA and ask for help.. And that was mostly because a Marine friend told me to get some help.. Even in my interview I lied about my daily struggles cause I couldn't admit weakness.. From talking to you guys I've gathered that I'm not alone in this..
 
Even in my interview I lied about my daily struggles cause I couldn't admit weakness.. From talking to you guys I've gathered that I'm not alone in this..

No you are not alone.......For us Nam guys it was called doing a John Wayne. Real men don't cry, that kind of shit. For a few of us it's true, we can not cry. I can tear up.....but that's it for me....

J R
 
No you are not alone.......For us Nam guys it was called doing a John Wayne. Real men don't cry, that kind of shit. For a few of us it's true, we can not cry. I can tear up.....but that's it for me....

J R

This hits so close to home for me. The general display of emotion I do not possess. When my dad was killed. I never shed a tear. Still til this day that in itself bothers me.

I've never discussed feelings with my wife. Hell...just now began opening up some to my T.

@OIF2Vet you made the step to seek help. Maybe the VA does it half assed. But now you've finally acknowledged it.
 
OIF2VET,

I just introduced myself a few days ago and you replied to me. I took the time to read your story and through this thread. These guys from what I read are on top of it. There is not much as far as the macro picture of what is going on that I can say at this point that has not already been said, besides my personal stories. All I can say from personal experience is that you are not alone and we are all probably going through most of the same general issues. Moving forward I find that the only thing I can do is learn to adapt to my symptoms, as there is not magic cure. We are also products of our environment and I will repeat what others have said here and that is we have a hard time adapting back into society. This being said to reduce my triggers I plan on moving out into the country. I believe having less triggers to contend with, can possibly offer me a better day to day quality of life. I am not sure yet if this is true, I will find out. I found a woman by chance, that has accepted my PSTD, which was not planned. However any woman that will clean up my puke from anxiety or deal with my night terrors deserves a shot. I feel if I don't stay with her, I will surely spiral out of control. I think a good quality partner that can tolerate us and love us for who we are, can balance us out some. It is just hard, because I find myself completely numb to her allot. I can go from caring for her to not feeling anything at all, even getting anger at the sight of her or her touching me. Before I met my current girlfriend of a year, I was planning to ghost into the wilderness and never be seen or heard from again. I know it sound dramatic, but I don't know how else to explain it. I just could not handle society and what was going on around me. I wanted to find a hole and bury myself in it and I could careless about money, social stature, progression of any kind, and life in general. I think when we are by ourselves the beast tends to take over. The challenging part is just finding someone that is open minded enough to tolerate and handle us.
 
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