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Thanks @Movingforward10 and @blackemerald1 ?
This thread and what you and others have contributed has really helped me a lot to be a bit less phobic, avoidant, panicky, escapist about it.
Funny, how reassuring and helpful it can be just to know that others struggle with the issue too... I guess it's validating to hear it, so it helps stop the inner critic dialogue of "I'm too stupid to deal with this, it's my fault it's a problem, I'm weak to be scared of it" and so on.
I think just giving myself permission that yes, this is a scary and challenging and emotional topic... for many people and for ppl with childhood trauma especially... I think that's allowing me to feel more empowered about it and less like I'm weak/ stupid for "not getting it" or "not knowing the answers already".
So thank youuuu for the encouragement!! ?
Having said all that, I've just hit the first "bump" in the road already... d'oh.
I put my savings plan in an excel spreadsheet, thinking it'd motivate me to see how the savings add up over the next 12 months.
Instead, kid-brain is like "OOOOMMMMGGGG savings are so SLOWWWWW" and very disappointed about the projected savings I'll have in 12 months.
Which, uhh, objectively is ridiculous, because if I wasn't doing this, then I'd have *no* savings in 12 months.
I guess kid-brains are not good at delayed gratification stuff... sigh.
I guess I can use my adult brain and be compassionately-bossy with kid-brain and say "Hush, it doesn't matter how much savings it is... The point is, savings = safety and we're adding to the safety each month. Leave the details to me and just focus on the fact that we're building more safety each month, bit by bit."
Also wanted to say that I agree with this ^^ totally. If it had been done as part of good parenting, it would've been fine and a great example of learning responsibility etc. But how it was actually done was neglect and abuse imo.
@bird_on_a_wire I found your description of your family's financial situation very interesting. If I've read it correctly, then it was challenging to be affected by poverty, but there was no abuse/ neglect around the topic of money in your family? If I've read it wrongly, I apologise.
The way I did read it, however, gives me a sense of comfort. Because it's my personal belief that poverty does not have to = abusiveness and neglect around money. I've met a lot of "decent, honest, hard-working poor folks" over the years, and have admired them greatly. Seeing them dealing with it so well and supporting each other and finding joy in life despite financial hardships... That is beyond inspirational to me.
In my family, lack of money was used as a reason/ excuse/ justification for abuse and neglect. So those two things have become very intertwined in my head. I hope to be able to untangle them one day and I aspire to live, think, feel and manage my money like your parents did @bird_on_a_wire . If I can get there, I will be very happy and at peace. So thank you for sharing your story... it resonates with me very deeply.
One thing that I learned to think about that over the years is to stare at the person that was being mean/ stingy/ abusive with their money and silently think "Yeah, God/ the universe gave you money because they didn't give you anything else (like compassion, soul, warmth, intelligence). You're the one that got the raw deal."
And yeah, my family did the whole "hoarding" thing too... From post WWII experiences of poverty... I find it really challenging myself, because I grew up with this iron clad rule of NOTHING GETS THROWN AWAY EVER cos who knows, maybe in 25 years we'll need it for SOMETHING. I have huge amounts of guilt around throwing anything away, it takes a lot of effort to remind myself that it's a stupid nonesense "rule" made by abusive people who weren't well... And that there are more sensible and sane ways of being respectful and not-wasteful with your possessions, than "just hoarding".
Hoarding is definitely part of a "poverty mindset" imo... A sense that there will never be "enough"...
Edit to add:
The social worker and I brainstormed for ages and have come up with the following system: I have two boxes for mail. One box I'm allowed to just dump the mail in unopened, when I get it from the letter box. (This is a scary step for me, just on its own). Then, I'm allowed to open that mail (all or some of it) when I feel ready. The mail that just contains information and doesn't need me to take action in any way, goes in the 2nd box to be filed away at some later point.
So the first box contains the opened mail I need to take action on and any mail I don't feel able to open. And I take this box along to the appointments with the social worker. When I'm there, I open any letters I didn't feel able to open on my own, and we got through the contents of the box to talk about what needs doing and if I can manage on my own.
This has helped *massively*.
It's stopped the inner dialogue of "I SHOULDN'T be scared of this".
Cos, just trying to suppress the fear wasn't working.
So even tho the process of using 2 boxes to put the "scary" mail in feels kinda silly... It's working... It's an emotionally scary topic for me and the social worker and I have found a way of responding well to that emotional component.
I dunno if there's anything "similar" you could do about your sense of fear about the bills? Some way of validating that it's OKAY to be scared of it, EVEN if it's "irrational" because you've saved for those bills and some way of sharing that burden with others?
Another edit to add:
(This topic fries my brain and I forget everythingggg)
So, I want to *keep* my credit cards, but not use them anymore. Because, there's several thousand $ worth of "potential credit" on each of them, so if I ever had a big "emergency" that I haven't got enough savings for (huge vet bill, car can't be repaired and needs to be replaced) then I'd have those credit cards as an additional safety net. That's the role I want them to play in my life in future.
This thread and what you and others have contributed has really helped me a lot to be a bit less phobic, avoidant, panicky, escapist about it.
Funny, how reassuring and helpful it can be just to know that others struggle with the issue too... I guess it's validating to hear it, so it helps stop the inner critic dialogue of "I'm too stupid to deal with this, it's my fault it's a problem, I'm weak to be scared of it" and so on.
I think just giving myself permission that yes, this is a scary and challenging and emotional topic... for many people and for ppl with childhood trauma especially... I think that's allowing me to feel more empowered about it and less like I'm weak/ stupid for "not getting it" or "not knowing the answers already".
So thank youuuu for the encouragement!! ?
Having said all that, I've just hit the first "bump" in the road already... d'oh.
I put my savings plan in an excel spreadsheet, thinking it'd motivate me to see how the savings add up over the next 12 months.
Instead, kid-brain is like "OOOOMMMMGGGG savings are so SLOWWWWW" and very disappointed about the projected savings I'll have in 12 months.
Which, uhh, objectively is ridiculous, because if I wasn't doing this, then I'd have *no* savings in 12 months.
I guess kid-brains are not good at delayed gratification stuff... sigh.
I guess I can use my adult brain and be compassionately-bossy with kid-brain and say "Hush, it doesn't matter how much savings it is... The point is, savings = safety and we're adding to the safety each month. Leave the details to me and just focus on the fact that we're building more safety each month, bit by bit."
In the context of good parenting,no that wouldn't be. That would be teaching life skills. But in my context, which I'm assuming you are referring to, it was. Food was not witheld from me (although I paid for my own), my basic needs of food and shelter were not denied. But the context for me was as I wrote in my post. So overall: it was an abdication of parenting becuase they needed me to be an adult to sort out their problems.
Also wanted to say that I agree with this ^^ totally. If it had been done as part of good parenting, it would've been fine and a great example of learning responsibility etc. But how it was actually done was neglect and abuse imo.
@bird_on_a_wire I found your description of your family's financial situation very interesting. If I've read it correctly, then it was challenging to be affected by poverty, but there was no abuse/ neglect around the topic of money in your family? If I've read it wrongly, I apologise.
The way I did read it, however, gives me a sense of comfort. Because it's my personal belief that poverty does not have to = abusiveness and neglect around money. I've met a lot of "decent, honest, hard-working poor folks" over the years, and have admired them greatly. Seeing them dealing with it so well and supporting each other and finding joy in life despite financial hardships... That is beyond inspirational to me.
In my family, lack of money was used as a reason/ excuse/ justification for abuse and neglect. So those two things have become very intertwined in my head. I hope to be able to untangle them one day and I aspire to live, think, feel and manage my money like your parents did @bird_on_a_wire . If I can get there, I will be very happy and at peace. So thank you for sharing your story... it resonates with me very deeply.
I'm very sorry about this experience... That's such a mean way to use money as a power game. I remember countless similar situations... Where my abusive parent was out to shame me and money and my lack of access to it was used in an abusive way. Ugh.They didn't throw away money and when I got a date for the prom with 2 weeks to spare, there wasn't enough time for my mother to sew me a dress and oohhh and ahhhh over her fashion design in two weeks....and buying one was out of the question so because I got asked too late for her liking.... I couldn't go. The money was there......not accessible to me....I had no idea what people did with money. I guess I learned through the lessons of hard knocks.
One thing that I learned to think about that over the years is to stare at the person that was being mean/ stingy/ abusive with their money and silently think "Yeah, God/ the universe gave you money because they didn't give you anything else (like compassion, soul, warmth, intelligence). You're the one that got the raw deal."
And yeah, my family did the whole "hoarding" thing too... From post WWII experiences of poverty... I find it really challenging myself, because I grew up with this iron clad rule of NOTHING GETS THROWN AWAY EVER cos who knows, maybe in 25 years we'll need it for SOMETHING. I have huge amounts of guilt around throwing anything away, it takes a lot of effort to remind myself that it's a stupid nonesense "rule" made by abusive people who weren't well... And that there are more sensible and sane ways of being respectful and not-wasteful with your possessions, than "just hoarding".
Hoarding is definitely part of a "poverty mindset" imo... A sense that there will never be "enough"...
Edit to add:
I also wanted to respond to this: Over the past few years, I've developed a really big phobia about "opening the mail". Like, ridiculous levels of phobia. For the first time in my life, I've literally just left letters unopened, cos my brain just wasn't coping. I'm seeing a social worker atm and this is the first thing we've started working on. What's really helped me is to have it validated that it's a HUGE issue for me. We've decided that just as other people are phobic about things like dentists, flying, snakes, etc (all things I'm not scared of) I'm "allowed" to have a massive phobia about opening the mail.I wish I didn't feel such apprehension every time there's a bill but I still do, even when I know I've saved for it.
The social worker and I brainstormed for ages and have come up with the following system: I have two boxes for mail. One box I'm allowed to just dump the mail in unopened, when I get it from the letter box. (This is a scary step for me, just on its own). Then, I'm allowed to open that mail (all or some of it) when I feel ready. The mail that just contains information and doesn't need me to take action in any way, goes in the 2nd box to be filed away at some later point.
So the first box contains the opened mail I need to take action on and any mail I don't feel able to open. And I take this box along to the appointments with the social worker. When I'm there, I open any letters I didn't feel able to open on my own, and we got through the contents of the box to talk about what needs doing and if I can manage on my own.
This has helped *massively*.
It's stopped the inner dialogue of "I SHOULDN'T be scared of this".
Cos, just trying to suppress the fear wasn't working.
So even tho the process of using 2 boxes to put the "scary" mail in feels kinda silly... It's working... It's an emotionally scary topic for me and the social worker and I have found a way of responding well to that emotional component.
I dunno if there's anything "similar" you could do about your sense of fear about the bills? Some way of validating that it's OKAY to be scared of it, EVEN if it's "irrational" because you've saved for those bills and some way of sharing that burden with others?
Another edit to add:
(This topic fries my brain and I forget everythingggg)
I got rid of my credit card/debt a few years ago.
So, I want to *keep* my credit cards, but not use them anymore. Because, there's several thousand $ worth of "potential credit" on each of them, so if I ever had a big "emergency" that I haven't got enough savings for (huge vet bill, car can't be repaired and needs to be replaced) then I'd have those credit cards as an additional safety net. That's the role I want them to play in my life in future.
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