Other What is a sociopath? personality disorders general

[landytoday]

Also, I will not take back that the ex who punched, kicked, and held a knife to my throat torturing me without any emotion was a Sociopath. He was more than ass, jerk, abuser, or plain bad guy. (Oddly one of those jerks later went on to put a young nurse in the hospital, she was left brain dead.)I've met those before, gotten mixed up with them even. Not since my father or since, have met anyone who beat someone half their size for no reason what-so-ever and act like nothing had happened.

I have to agree. I know a sociopath when Iv'e got one in my life. Doesn't always take a psych degree to see somethings not right.

 

[landytoday]

Icon, if my brain worked even half as well as your "not good brain day" I would be a happy person

 

[doglover]

I tend to agree with Icon Nikon - there can be something therapeutic in allowing a client to speculate about possible dysfunction in an abuser. As long as the therapist does not say without qualification - he has X/he is an X - I think this can allow the client to do important work.

We need a bad guy sometimes, to get through healing. It is harder to realize the shame and guilt are misplaced victim blaming if one can't also view the abuser as deeply disordered - in some cases. For some clients, viewing that person as just an asshat will work later on, but right now their mind needs to view him as deeply evil and disturbed to put the guilt and shame in proper perspective. It can also help them from taking on or keeping the Stockholm-like perspective of seeing themselves as the abuser sees them.

Someone here mentioned when a therapist will randomly say themselves, he is an X. I think that is poor form on the T's part, as it did not come from the client. It is one thing for the client to say "I think he is a sociopath!" It is quite another for the T to say this without the client putting the idea forward. The latter is a sign of poor therapy practices IMHO.

All of this is separate from the policy anthony has for this website regarding the labeling of people, but I just wanted to throw in my two pennies on the matter.

 

[cjf2010]

I agree with you there, my ex wasn't diagnosed with his mental disorders till after he got a 6 to 12 year sentence for rape. I knew long before that there was something wrong with him, and that it was a personality disorder, no one would believe me at first. I was kind of stuck in the relationship because of how violent he could get on the spur of the moment. I finally divorced him 2 years ago when he was released from prison and had to go to a half-way house. He's considered a violent habitual criminal, and he's also on Meagan's List.

 

[ericaboo]

Great thread - I have been upset on some other forums about the totally unprofessional laymans' diagnoses of people that did something wrong. I just think it perpetuates stereotypes and just makes the whole DSM confusion nightmare all the worse.

I do have to speculate occasionally about my abusers - it just helps me to try to make sense of what has happened - but it's important to qualify that with something that shows that it's only my uneducated guess or emotional take on what's going on with that person.

Labels and diagnoses are in constant change - this is all a very new science in the geological scheme of things.

 

[seekr]

Anyone whose life has been ripped up by predators whose actions are just like those with a disease-of-the-mind diagnosis must understand that these types often lay in wait for new victims, are often masters of setup, and are often great actors. A forum like this can be just like shooting fish in a barrel, so keep your guard up and run new friends thru all of your filters carefully before getting too vulnerable.

 

[sea]

I think the big thing when dealing with words like narcissist, psychopath and sociopath is that a person applies a decided lack of empathy on the part of their abuser with the arguably large inherent lack of empathy within someone with those personality disorders. I have no doubt in my mind that my dad is a sociopath. I have had a few therapeutic professionals back this claim. It bothers me that people use words like psychopath and sociopath as character descriptors especially because it's a diagnosis that hits pretty close to home for me personally.

You see people saying "Abused by a sociopath" but you don't see people saying "Abused by a bipolar" or "Abused by a PTSD" nearly as much. Perhaps because sociopathy almost inherently describes a set of personality symptoms that basically defines how a person operates. When you use the word sociopath, most people know what kind of person you're talking about.

But nevertheless, I am wary of the words. I fit Hare's checklist of psychopathy almost entirely when I was a teenager and now I no longer meet the criteria because I have learned better and know better. It is more than likely that my responses were a product of my environment and not so much a product of a personality disorder. People are more layered and complex than what the DSM would have anyone believe.

Anyway, what I haven't seen mentioned:

The problem with providing evidence for an ASPD diagnosis is that people with ASPD are notorious for manipulating the system in such a way that they never get diagnosed. My dad will never get diagnosed, but I believe with 100% certainty that he is. Some things in life just don't require empirical evidence. Some times you just know. I don't need anyone on this board to approve of whether or not I think my dad's a sociopath.

I can't say "My dad IS absolutely positively a sociopath" because he is not diagnosed with it (and who is to say that a diagnosis is empirical evidence anyway, especially in psychiatry? People are misdiagnosed all the time) but it is freedom of speech that I'm allowed to say "I believe that's what he is" because that implies that I personally know and believe it. Absolutely. It's very likely that some abusers that people speak of on here are ASPD or "sociopaths", but you would be hard pressed to find "empirical" evidence suggesting it.

 

[PTSD sufferer]

But nevertheless, I am wary of the words. I fit Hare's checklist of psychopathy almost entirely when I was a teenager and now I no longer meet the criteria because I have learned better and know better. It is more than likely that my responses were a product of my environment and not so much a product of a personality disorder. People are more layered and complex than what the DSM would have anyone believe.

I agree with you Sea on many points. And, I am sorry that you were also raised by an ass of a father. I can really sympathise with you. Based on my own experiences, my hubby's experiences and written evidence in my fathers words, my T has a pretty good idea of what my father is 'likely' to be, even if it is the lower end of the scale. That's enough evidence for me, and I have no intention of subjecting myself to him to gather anything more.

Same goes for the other moron in my life who traumatised me. Frankly, when another victim has made the same statements I have, and that victims' T has labelled that person as 'likely' also, without me even saying a word about my experiences and thoughts. Then, that is enough evidence for me, and I will avoid that moron for the rest of my life.

But I just want to clarify two points. Firstly, unless you are a psychiatrist and register/ licence Hare's diagnostic tool, then it is not even wise to consider your teenage behavior as anything more than a product of a crap environment and the arch old teenage tradition of kicking back at the world/ family etc. Hare puts warnings all over his public webpages which state that the broad criteria cannot be used to diagnose and you need to licence to tool to even seen the diagnostic criteria.

Each of the diagnostic tools, including Hare's, DSM and WHO, work like a family tree. Each trait/ behaviour has a number of sub conditions, these conditions have sub conditions and so on. So, the broad information that is accessed by the public will always be incomplete. Then there is the training (educational and clinical) around using the tools appropriately that needs to be considered. So, yes, the tools are much more complex than what we see on the net, and people are far more complex than even the full diagnostics tools, then there are are co-morbidities (all pretty complex stuff).

Second point, there are many other members on this forum who have been abused by people with 'other' mental health conditions, I haven't seen bipolar, but I have seen 'other' conditions not mentioned on this thread. And, maybe some of the supporters would argue that they have been abused in some form, by their PTSD sufferers...it depends on the person and their reaction to the environment really. The extremity of the fight response can be really unhealthy for supporters - bless them for putting up with us!

 

[anthony]

Each of the diagnostic tools, including Hare's, DSM and WHO, work like a family tree. Each trait/ behaviour has a number of sub conditions, these conditions have sub conditions and so on. So, the broad information that is accessed by the public will always be incomplete. Then there is the training (educational and clinical) around using the tools appropriately that needs to be considered. So, yes, the tools are much more complex than what we see on the net, and people are far more complex than even the full diagnostics tools, then there are are co-morbidities (all pretty complex stuff).

Exactly. If I could like that 100+ times, you would have it.

People are just too easily wrapped within reading a symptom, telling themselves they do that, then thinking they have it, or another they know has it.

I was reading a report of some of the worlds top trained deadliest people, specifically trained to have no compassion, remorse, empathy, etc, and kill without question and they don't have nightmares over it. The majority of those people after many years, are lucky to develop between 1 - 4 of the actual complete assessed criterion for antisocial personality disorder, majority 1 - 2 at most, still not meeting criterion. I read a book which had information about this in a fictional sense, and asked if it had any truth and got some unclassified docs from an intel mate to have a read off. Was very interesting.

People really need to get this limited, half arsed view of reading a list on the www out of their head, as diagnostic medicine is far more complex that a list of terms.

That list is purely a broad spectrum to present the underlying aspects required to actually meet each term, which each term is typically quite vast.

PTSD is no different. People have trauma, they read down the list, convince themselves they have it. A psychologist may tell them they have it... then they endup at a psychiatrist, suddenly being professionally diagnosed by someone with actual diagnostic medical qualifications, they're told they don't have it at all and then cannot fathom the psychiatrist is right. So they get a second psychiatric opinion, same result; third, same result.

Then they go fall back to the psychologists half arsed claim with no actual diagnostic medical training, just a few sessions about diagnosis and then clinical experience of doing it wrong. All of which doesn't come close to diagnostic medicine itself, which a psychiatrist is the only qualification with that experience in the field of mental health. Psychologists are a bi-product of an over-crowded system for diagnosis... their speciality is psychotherapy and study mental health aspects to improve the future of mental health.

 

[sea]

But I just want to clarify two points. Firstly, unless you are a psychiatrist and register/ licence Hare's diagnostic tool, then it is not even wise to consider your teenage behavior as anything more than a product of a crap environment and the arch old teenage tradition of kicking back at the world/ family etc.

Yep. My point was that people fit the diagnostic criteria for things all the time, that doesn't necessarily make them whatever it is. I suppose when you read what I wrote there it doesn't sound very cohesive, or probably sounds like that's the main reason it hits close to home. I left that there but I chose not to disclose the other half of that point - which might have made it seem stupid to keep there.

The DSM, diagnostic criteria, symptoms, whatever - they can't be interpreted professionally by anyone other than a psychiatrist. Right now I have a psychologist (who like is mentioned does not have the training) who is convinced that I have ASPD. He thinks my actual diagnosis is complete bullshit and a fantasy, that doesn't exist and people just lie for attention and act like Sybil. Because I don't act like Sybil, he thinks this is further proof that my diagnosis is fake.

This is so pervasive that he will go to great lengths to both bring up the subject, by himself, and then proceed to say "No, that's not it, no. You're just looking for attention," and then say, "What you actually have is ASPD." It's very maddening. Empathy is something I've struggled with my whole life. The funny thing is that he is choosing to "diagnose" me based on symptoms I don't have, and not on symptoms I actually have. Goes to show how much he knows.

Which winds down my final thoughts on the matter: It takes a psychiatrist/someone trained to interpret diagnostic data and apply it. But that doesn't mean a person can't have symptoms. The last point I made on that sort of explains, in detail, why people do what they do in associating the word sociopath with other people. They know that their family member/abuser displays the symptoms. They also know that this abuser/family member is manipulative enough to avoid ever seeing a day in a psychiatrist's office.

As human beings we tend to prefer order, harmony, and explanation - meaning - to chaos. Knowing my dad and knowing both the symptoms he possesses and the opinion of my psychiatrist, I am content to say that I believe he has ASPD/psychopathy and that is largely the reason why he behaved the way he did. I think that is just the way it goes for a lot of people. Sometimes you just can never know empirically. Especially if the person is a master manipulator.

I think that people should invariably be permitted and encouraged to be able to identify that they meet the symptoms of a disorder. That's why the information is public imo. The problem is when of course people who don't have it become convinced they do, perpetuating false information etc even in the face of a reality check. But the diagnostic process does, to some degree, involve patient speculation and self-reporting. ("I have x y z symptom" etc). I would never have gone to get a PTSD diagnosis if I didn't believe I met the diagnostic criteria for PTSD. It would have been pointless.

Second point, there are many other members on this forum who have been abused by people with 'other' mental health conditions

Yes. People still tend to gravitate toward a few specific terms in actually describing their abusers though. Sociopath, BPD, bipolar, all remain common across the board. Far more common than "Depression, anxiety, schizophrenia, PTSD, dissociative disorder" anyway lol.

On a slightly unrelated note it is actually something I thought about saying as well but I didn't want to start another argument. I think that people place too much "good person/bad person" on some of these diagnoses.

For instance on a personal example again I see loads people doing this with BPD. "Abused by BPD, ahh, typical BPD, horrible, aaahhhhh get it away!" I have BPD. I sometimes fall into patterns of rage or paranoia, but I have insight. I understand what BPD is and how it affects my thinking. It is not impossible to treat and it doesn't make you a bad person. It also doesn't make you a good person. BPD untreated can cause destructive and unhealthy behaviors. Just like PTSD, bipolar, depression, schizophrenia, and practically every other mental illness...ever.

Diagnoses are neutral. Sometimes I get the distinct impression that people look at diagnostic labels and think, "Well, my husband/dad/wife/brother/etc were bad people, and All Sociopaths Are Bad People, so obviously he must be a sociopath!" you know? That isn't really a scientific commentary just a trend I have noticed sometimes in relation to expressing diagnostic labels.

Meh. I think in some cases it's warranted even if there is no "empirical" claim and in some cases it's just a pile of poo.

 

[cjf2010]

My ex also has PTSD from things that happened to him in his childhood, but he definitely does have ASPD as well. He is also bi-polar, has adult ADHD, and some anxiety issues. He has manipulated the system for many decades, but when he raped my daughter-in-law he was sent to prison and there they finally had the chance to fully evaluate him. Due to his crime he isn't even allowed to speak to his family (per his counselor and his parole officer) because we are considered members of the victims families. I think they have purposely removed him from our lifes regardless. In the end I'm glad they did because I believe he manipulated me as much as he did the system. I can finally say I'm free from all his future insanity, now I just want the past insanity to go away as well. One day at a time, I try to make to heal everyday, it is a slow and meticulous process. I also found someone in my life who is healthy and tries to understand and love me for who I am. :barefoot:

 

[anthony]

On a slightly unrelated note it is actually something I thought about saying as well but I didn't want to start another argument. I think that people place too much "good person/bad person" on some of these diagnoses.

For instance on a personal example again I see loads people doing this with BPD. "Abused by BPD, ahh, typical BPD, horrible, aaahhhhh get it away!" I have BPD. I sometimes fall into patterns of rage or paranoia, but I have insight. I understand what BPD is and how it affects my thinking. It is not impossible to treat and it doesn't make you a bad person. It also doesn't make you a good person. BPD untreated can cause destructive and unhealthy behaviors. Just like PTSD, bipolar, depression, schizophrenia, and practically every other mental illness...ever.

Yep... most people don't really understand what it is either, just like sociopaths. They use common-sense logic to derive word assimilation, Borderline + Personality, often coming up with multiple personalities or such, which is far from BPD or actual mental health common-sense.

Not everyone with BPD is unmanageable. I have had to ban many from this site permanently due to BPD, because they've simply been more disruptive to the overall community than helpful, yet there are some here with BPD that cause no issues in the scope of mental health discussion. Even a majority of these I would take a guess and put them into a psychologist diagnosed them with BPD, when they actually don't have it... vs. a psychiatric complete personality assessment.

BPD is a case by case basis IMO... and it makes a person no less good or evil than someone with severe PTSD symptoms.