When Is It Appropriate To Be Angry - And How Should It Be Expressed?

[Eleanor]

Talked to H briefly on the phone last night. He is really in the dumps, feeling hopeless. I suspect he will feel better today - it is day five after getting glutened, and he should have slept last night after the adrenaline crash.

He said last night he felt badly (no specifics) and like this (the house in town) was my house, not his, and that there was no hope for the Bergsma house ever being home. :cry: It is a lousy way to feel.

I am scared about the Bergsma house. No big secret there. And I think if he can get better we can make it work. But we can't do it if his PTSD stays this bad. He said he was considering doing inpatient treatment when L and I get back from our midwest trip. I said I thought that could really help. I am also scared of inpatient programs. And my initial search for one around here was not very promising. But maybe it'll be different if he looks.

L and I had a nice day - albeit with me being anxious and sad all day. But we went to lunch, the zoo, she rode the rides (even found another little girl to ride with) and then went to the park before we came home. H very much felt his absence, as did I. I wish I could have invited him along - but I barely had the energy to drive around, much less cope with his emotional turmoil.

It so so so sucks. The whole thing.

 

[Deleted member 12723]

(((Eleanor))) here is a great big bear hug(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((hug)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))). You are doing great, hope you get some times of refreshment from all that you have been dealing with. My heart goes out to the both of you. I am proud of you for keep on keeping on.

 

[Mary Burgess]

Yeah, ((((hugs))))) for you, Eleanor!

When I was having my rage last week, or whenever it was, it WAS just like being a dry drunk...and I felt so dejected and ashamed. Thank you Gizmo for pointing that out!

I am so glad you are getting some time for you!

 

[intothelight]

Eleanor,

Wow what a tough situation. In all honesty, if my H approached me like that my fight would go up and I would ask him why he didn't think of closing a window or getting a blanket? (I excluded the expletives.) Really, it just sounds like he was looking for a fight, and not addressing the real cause of his anxiety or insecurity. But you definitely need to have some boundaries with him as no one should berate another person in that manner.

PTSD is tough to deal with, but that is just it; the sufferer has to deal with it. It is his choice to work on his behavior and make the necessary changes. It is your choice to put up with it or not. Keep remembering you deserve to be treated as you would treat others and don't let anyone treat you any less. You are a wonderful and amazing person, and you deserve the best.

Deb

 

[EloiseLandau]

"On the assumption that I want to meet my H's needs, and I care about him, and want our relationship to survive, am I being unreasonable/unrealistic if I tell my H that I will not tolerate him speaking to me angrily?"

What about your needs? Your right to feel safe and cared for and loved? To be talked to in a respectful manner to resolve issues or grievances like an adult

 

[^^FlyingSolo^^]

I think it would help if there was more communication involved. Communication in a quiet non-distracting atmosphere just with only the two of you. No tv on or anything. With the intention of a very quiet and loving personal heart to heart talk discussing each others needs and boundaries, and finding ways to compromise.

And not just one talk but a couple times a week until the problems start resolving themselves. If one person in the marriage is unable to cooperate in a loving, calm face to face talk, then a therapists needs to be called in.

That just my 2 cents.

Everybody deserves to be treated with respect and dignity.

Solo

 

[Eleanor]

Yes, yes and yes.

So H is out of the episode and feels lower than low. Like :poop:. Apologized. Then we spent today "debriefing." I told him this kind of thing couldn't happen again. He agreed. We now have a plan.

We came up with (as suggested) a "signal" and plan for when I think he is having an episode. "Go to the man cave" is what he wants me to say - AND we agreed that there is no point in trying to economize on fuel - he just always has to have an "escape option." So if I think he is in an episode - I point to the car and say "Go to the man cave!" And he is supposed to just go - it will likely make him pissed off enough that he would. The inability to have him LEAVE on Sunday - really really made it bad. He realized he was acting out his ex's behavior. :eek: (no vomit-face - but that goes here.) I asked him if I had ever been wrong about his being in an episode? He thought about it and said, no I had never been mistaken. (Although I think he ALWAYS thinks he is not.) In any case we agreed that it was better to risk me being wrong from time to time, than to expose me and L to more of his ugliness.

He realized yesterday that he should have just gotten a blanket - they were not three steps away. It is never the substance that makes any sense. We figured out what triggered him, in retrospect was me rolling a stop sign (on a dark country road where it was clear we were the only car for at least a half mile in every direction) it reminded him of his ex's driving which terrified him. SO EMDR session on that next time. Actually we decided I would make the draft list of episodes to work on with EMDR. He'll modify it, of course, but I turn out to be a pretty good detective and can be helpful figuring stuff out.

He also started listening to the nonviolent communication CDs I put in the car - I only asked him to listen to them... oh a YEAR ago. But he has now, and is "getting" it... so I'm trying not to be a snarky bad winner.

He has also decided to do an inpatient or intensive outpatient (which is what seems to be done around here) program of exposure therapy in July or August - depending on when we can get it scheduled. I think he decided this because he got triggered in a fairly low stress situation where, in reality, nothing bad or even dangerous occurred. Always before he has had some external circumstance to blame it on. And he was around me long enough to really go through his paces of how horrible he can be. Interestingly what really cut him to the quick was doing exactly what his ex used to do - be angry and abusive to me, and then get a phone call and be perfectly sunny and pleasant to the person on the phone. He knows well how it feels to be on the other side of that - and is most humiliated that he did it to me.

I also admitted (to myself mostly, it didn't come as a surprise to him) this AM that I cannot relax around him anymore, and that this is a problem that I'd expect will take some time to cure.:( I guess it will resolve when he gets the PTSD better controlled, huh? Until then, I work on maintaining my boundaries (most especially when he is bad) and feeling things as they come up - and getting out of "walking on eggshells" which I keep catching myself doing - and I can tell are building resentment - so I have to stop.

He cannot as yet tell when he goes into dissociation - although his behavior makes it clear that he is "in" the wrong time (I'm not me, L is not L but some other child, he takes antiquated routes across town.) I told him some people can tell when it is coming on - and use grounding techniques. We/he has one, which is a "check in" to identify how and what he is feeling. But once he is even a little way in, he can't do it. I can ask "how are you feeling" and he won't answer the question. A dead give away that he is "in it". I told him a number of people here can tell - and have grounding techniques that help them stay attached to reality even through the emotions. (at least to a degree) He said he would talk to his T about it, but didn't seem very hopeful. He really, I think for the first time, finally admitted to himself that he probably would not be able to eliminate this from his life/psyche - but that he could make it a lot better...

I want to tell you all that I would not have had the clarity to stand up for myself and tell him that next time he went into an episode L and I would just leave if it weren't for all of you. We came up with - I think - a less triggering solution that accomplishes the same end of getting him away from us when he is bad. But that solution is backed up by the certainty that if he does not remove himself - I will take L and I and go someplace else. It has been about a year since we figured out it was PTSD - and we are making progress - and I expect a lot more now. And I would not have seen it through without the understanding, information and most of all encouragement of everybody here. It is so much easier to "go in with backup." And to have the reality check, so I know I am not just "acting out my own stuff." The whole voluntary/involuntary thing is so tricky with this disease... Practical experience is a necessity.

Thank you. Thank you all.

 

[Eleanor]

Flying Solo - That is precisely the most confusing part of this whole horrible thing - that when he is NOT in an episode we communicate extremely well - and it is only when he is "in it" that we can't and when I try he is impossible and turns everything to evil intent. So there really is no point at all in talking then. The only thing I can do - apparently - is to get away and wait. Not my forte - running from a fight. Or waiting for that matter. :(

And EL - thank you for naming the needs in the situation - I only got about 1 1/2 out of the four:confused:. I have to work on identifying needs....

 

[angel2write]

(((Eleanor)))

What a mess. Wait... more hugs: ((((((Eleanor))))))

Reading all this sort of makes me feel guilty by association. I felt like I could feel what your husband was doing/feeling. :( And I guess I'm glad that, in his saner moments, he feels bad and can make some sort of apology.

One thing you did that struck me as particularly good was when you recognized his probable fear that you were leaving in the truck and reassured him that you were only going across the street. You recognized that particular underlying anxiety trigger and disarmed it. My husband does that to me sometimes and the feeling it gives me is so odd. It's sort of like being smacked across the face with a soft fuzzy wet sock. Startling. And I end up standing there blinking while my confused and over-aroused brain tries to cope with a new understanding of the situation!

I really like your idea about him always feeling like he has an escape method, too. If some of his attacking behavior is caused by feeling trapped in a frightening situation, that should help. One of the things that has really saved Bear and I over the years is an early agreement we made with each other. We agreed that in any argument, if either one of us started feeling overwhelmingly upset, we could walk away and cool down. When we came back, we would finish the discussion. (It was important to me to know he would come back, so I didn't feel abandoned.)

My dad liked to trap us in corners and just go on and on with the verbal abuse... so knowing I could walk was an important element in calming the defensive anger. I wish I could tell you that it didn't take years. Or that I don't still screw up some times. Maybe the fact that your husband is in therapy and doing EMDR will speed up the process? One can hope, at least.

I wish I had something really wonderful to tell you that would fix everything. I really hope that he's able to take responsibility for learning a non-threatening way to confront you about issues. I know that communicating my needs makes me so overwhelmingly anxious that, by the time I get up the nerve to speak up, I'm way too aggressive and confrontational. So sometimes I will write notes. I will write over and over to try and get the attacking language out of it. Because I do the same thing your husband does and preface it with all these attacks before I can boil it down to the thing I really needed. Being "needy" just seems so frighteningly vulnerable! And there's this huge fear that if I say I needed something (like a warmer house last night) it will be used against me somehow.

Wow- I am seriously blathering today. If you had the patience to read all the way down to here, I'm sorry!

 

[Eleanor]

Don't be sorry Angel! I needed to hear ALL of that - every word.

I am so sad that you and he go through this. And Bear and Me too. It helps enormously to hear your experience, and to understand the possible root of the anxiety that drives the "word vomit."

I like your and Bear's rule. I think we need to have that. He "trapped" and pursued me a few times on Sunday, and I even ASKED him to go away for a while so that I could calm down, which he ignored.

I am hoping and praying that the EMDR will help (I don't know how many session he has actually done apart from the one, and he was evasive when I asked - and he ALWAYS knows "how many" - so I'm pretty sure it is just the one). He got a huge relief from the one session. So I am hopeful, even confident! that more will continue to help. And he has said he is going to do an intensive program - in patient or outpatient - whatever we can find, when he's done with this teaching round (in 9 weeks.)

I will try to remember that he is likely to have a lot of anxiety over communicating needs. Maybe we could practice this at non-needy times. Just get the language, and anticipate some of the things that are likely to come up and practice saying it in a good way - kind of have a good script to counter all the horrible nasty ones that get played out instead. I'll ask. Thank you for that as well.

He doesn't seem to be able to tell when he is going into an episode (I think I might have triggered another one by sending him and email that said I felt angry and resentful that he had been rude on the phone last night.) As he says "it all seems so real." I know some people can "feel them coming on." But he does not seem to be able to - maybe because his trauma started so early....

Ok, now I am blathering:)

 

[angel2write]

Feeling it "coming on" is not easy. I guess some people just have a lot of experience. I have a lot of trouble telling when I'm triggered, though my husband says he can tell better than me. When I'm "in it" it all seems right and reasonable!! It's only afterwards I feel like such a crumb.

But I am getting better at it. It's sort of like feeling very loving towards your child (if you can imagine this silly example). Imagine you're feeling very loving towards your kid and like you really want to grab them and squeeze them and do something extra special for them... and then you have to stop yourself and ask, "Am I really feeling loving? Or am I triggered? Sometimes when I do this, I'm reliving old loving feelings from past relationships. I need to stop and think, am I being appropriately loving? When I feel like this I can hurt people. Before I kiss and hug my kid the way I want to do right now, I need to stop and go think about it and make sure I'm responding to reality and not stuff in my head." But at the same time, you just feel this feeling so strong it's really hard to question it. It feels like real love. Learning to question your own emotional responses is really tricky.

I've found it easier to watch for pattern behaviors. I'm not able to question the emotions very well yet, but I'm learning that there are certain things I DO that are bad. If I do one of those things, it's a warning sign that I'm out of control, even if I don't FEEL out of control. And I am slowly learning to stop, apologize, and ask for time to get a grip. Or at least to lower my volume level. (See... I am telling you all my bad secrets now!)

I think practicing communication patterns when you're not upset is a great idea. I don't know how your money is, but if you can afford it (and thought your husband would cooperate), we've gotten some good out of The Assertiveness Workbook that Anthony recommends. The first part of the book is not hugely useful, but the latter parts have specific communication skills to work on. Some of them are things like asking for what you need/want, accepting and giving praise, accepting and giving constructive criticism, etc. Doing the section on asking for things was horribly hard for Bear and I. I cried. He cried. But we got better at it as we worked through the scripts and it turned into a real "moment" for us.

You said your husband's trauma started early. Dealing with any kind of early abuse can really stunt your communication skills. And communication is not just talking TO people, but also understanding what they mean when they talk back. Everything gets garbled with all these stressful emotional messages. So setting up some communication "codes" can really help. If you've planned out what the code words mean ahead of time (like your "Go to your man cave" signal) then there's less chance he will misinterpret it as frightening or threatening in the heat of the moment.

One last word: I think it is VERY BAD that he's pinning you in corners when he's angry. It's such a small step from cornering someone and yelling at them to laying hands on them... I've seen my dad cross it many times. That needs to be addressed urgently. I hope he can work with you, but if not, asking for help with that one is quite reasonable.

 

[Eleanor]

Thank you for all that Angel - I didn't see this post (I think) until just now. I will get the book, and see if he will do it with me. Though just at the moment I am not so sure he will...:cry: He is SO SURE he is not having an episode when he is in one. And it seems like the more he "controls" himself IN the episode, the worse it gets... I think this time he was being "good" for a couple of days and then... wham.

We had a bad bad blow up yesterday - luckily L was already at school. He was upset at me for "rejecting" him (I was too keyed up and physically achy to lay down and nap with him the day before so we watched tv together instead - and L told him I was watching NCIS when he called last week, and didn't hand over the phone when they were talking during his teaching break -that's the evidence of my not caring about him anymore.) I tried to address it - badly, admittedly, since this triggers MY patterns, and our sex life has been nil for... three years? his choice, but I didn't argue too much, but I have a lot of feelings about that too - but I regrouped, noticed I'd lost it, left the room. He followed me. Kept accusing me of not listening, not caring on and on. Wouldn't hear anything I said (Couldn't hear anything I said...) and then I told him to "go to the man cave" which is the signal we agreed on that he needed to leave, even if I was wrong. And he wouldn't. "I'm not in an episode! I really mean this!" So I left. It took a few tries and he took the keys out of the truck once and tried to block my exit several times. I was scared. I threatened to call 911 and he backed off. He said, "I just want you to listen to me." God, its so pathetic. I can see the need behind the anger - but there is NO WAY for me to meet it. He won't let me. Eventually another car drove down the street and he had to move away from the truck, so I drove off. He replied to my email (I sent it while he was still in - which I know is bad - but didn't think he'd get it until he was likely to be "out". Wrong again.)

The good thing is that I know I did the right thing. Once I regrouped I stopped engaging, and just tried to get the hell out of there. And it scared me that he pursued. I'm not going to see him except in public from here on until he's done a course of treatment. I'm not going to put myself in a position to get hurt physically. Emotionally, apparently, can't be helped, but I'm going to minimize that as much as I can. Ha ha. Like I can do anything about the fact that I am scared beyond belief and upset and crying at the drop of a hat for the whole time until he is back in his right mind. I'm doing stuff to take care of me. Remembering to eat. Doing the self-hypnosis stress control CD. Going to the gym today. Calling the T.

Angel, do you think he means all the mean stuff he says when he is bad? Do you think there is a part of him that really DOESN'T want to be married to me? That really DOES hate me? I just don't think its possible that I am THAT bad a partner - but I know I'm not perfect, hell, not even particularly good at this point. But I am doing my best to do the work. Don't I deserve some credit for that? Sorry... going off onto poor me venting... Anyway, I really would like to know what you think about if he means it....

Thank you Angel, your support and insight mean more to me than I can say....