Women/ Mother Relationships

[Eleanor]

It's like men actively do something (even if they're wrong), but women ignore the world around them and do nothing. But it's more than that, my experience is that those women become upset, irritable or angry at anyone bringing the 'badness' of the world into that bubble that they live in. But I still feel like theres something more that I can't quite put my finger on.

From the "easy" end of the spectrum here's what it looks like to me,
I say that my mother "disappears" unpleasant things. They just... cease to exist for her. She is fortunate in that very few really horrible things have crossed her path, and those that did were peripheral enough that she could run away. Which is odd, come to think of it, because she is actually quite good at negotiating difficult situations and people. So she, at some level, simply chooses not to. Which is rather horrible. A kind of moral omission that amounts to criminal negligence. What is the quote? "It is not the blows of our enemies which hurt the most, but the silence of our friends."

And for a child it is a kind of erasure or a profound disconnection. To have your deep feelings and hurts and fears just... erased. Over and over again. And then, having "erased" a part of you it is also a really really difficult model to try to use as you work toward wholeness. It is certainly a complicated package - even absent causing overt physical abuse.

 

[Meadowsweet]

trauma of ommission.

my mother "disappears" unpleasant things.

for a child it is a kind of erasure or a profound disconnection. To have your deep feelings and hurts and fears just... erased. Over and over again. And then, having "erased" a part of you

That describes my mother. As an adult, I didn't tell my mother about the violent relationship I'd been in because I didn't have that bond or trust of her. But when my new partner (of the time) announced that my ex beat me, she picked up her bag and left abruptly and has never ever spoken or even asked me about the violence. I don't remember if I even tried to tell her about the sexual abuse as a child, but I always felt (and still feel) frightened of her finding out what I percieved as 'bad' things in my life. If I was bullied at school, I'd worry that my mum would find out, I hid the fact that I'd started menstruating from her too - it's not natural.

"It is not the blows of our enemies which hurt the most, but the silence of our friends."

This has been my experience since. It's a quote that is so accurate.

Thanks for sharing. Sometimes I can't put my own feelings in words, but when someone else says it, I can say, yes, that's how I'm feeling.

 

[Eleanor]

I remember from a very young age (2nd grade?) walking to school and being very aware that I was On My Own. I didn't tell my mom when I started menstruating, either. I never talked to her about problems at school, or friends or boyfriends or ... anything much really. And it took until my 40's to really "get" how weird that was. I never had backup as a kid. My T is "reparenting" me in large measure. I sent her a card on mother's day on the grounds that she is the one doing the job.

In adult life my parents have never offered to babysit my daughter to give my husband and I a break. I didn't miss this until my daughter and son in law had a kid - and I ALWAYS make sure they go on one, at least, hopefully more "dates" while I am visiting. When I divorced my first husband... they were disappointed (they liked him) but never really asked me about it.

 

[Meadowsweet]

As an adult, I didn't tell my mother about the violent relationship I'd been in because I didn't have that bond or trust of her. But when my new partner (of the time) announced that my ex beat me, she picked up her bag and left abruptly and has never ever spoken or even asked me about the violence.

My mother has said a couple of strange things lately. The other day, the ex that I was talking about above was coming round to pick something up when she would be here. My mum doesn't visit that often, and I'm a bit on edge when people are round, but he said it was the only time he could pick it up. So I apologetically said to my mum that he was coming round because there wasn't any other time - and she replied along the lines of, he's not that bad, and she added "he took care of you when you were lost."

I just don't know what to make of that. Is that showing that she cares a bit, or that she was relieved that somebody else took care of me? Is it a judgement of me of 'being lost'? What does that say about how she sees it?

Lost from where? Something very bad happened when I was young, I was raped again at just about 15, got into drugs by the time I was nearly 16, got into a violent relationship and harder drugs by 17 and ran away from that at 22 and moved straight in with the ex she's talking about. I was coming down off drugs, with black eyes and a broken nose, and the mind of someone who has been in a violent relationship for 5 years, with no possessions and nowhere to go. He was 44, with no job and a binge drinker. And he would remind me that he'd "dragged me out the gutter." Compared to my previous relationships, this wasn't bad. Then I left 7 years and two children later, met a man, who I slept with once, then he raped me and eventually tried to kill me. And I've had PTSD for the past 7 years. So I guess I hear something like that, and it reminds me that she doesn't know much about my life at all.

I feel more sad than angry, things went wrong way before I was a lost teenager. They seem right to my mum now, because I make them seem that way. Not because they really are.

Then the other thing that happened recently, we were talking about mothers day and whether there's a grandparents day, and she says quite casually that I've "done wonders" with my kids, and that she doesn't know where I got that from because she was never the "maternal type" :speechless:

I like that it's a compliment. I should be happy that it's a compliment, and a part of me is. But at the same time, I'm left thinking, well at least she's reflecting on life and noticing that perhaps she hasn't been there for me. But another part of me hurts that she doesn't know the life I've lived (and live) because she wasn't accessible.

I've protected her, and I'm happy that she lives without the hurt of knowing. She's like a child to me, who I'm glad I've protected because I do love her. But then, there's a little girl in me too, and I needed her to be a mother starting 40 years ago.

 

[Eleanor]

But another part of me hurts that she doesn't know the life I've lived (and live) because she wasn't accessible.

That's a loss to grieve indeed. Grieving is the only thing to be done, no? Can't unring that bell. The best we can do is to nurture and comfort the bits that are still hurting, and find friends and allies who will support us in doing that now.

It is generous of you to protect her. I hope it doesn't come at too high a cost to you. It sounds like it would likely be a higher price (at least probably so) if you did open up and share with her - she apparently doesn't have the emotional resources to respond in any kind of helpful way. Then or now.:cry:

 

[Philippa]

I really appreciate this thread, and can relate to certain things people have posted here. I seem to prefer the company of men and have always had male friends, though this may also be due to growing up with two brothers, and I just know how to communicate with men more than women. I like that bluntness I am free to communicate with them, and know they mostly appreciate that about me.

Men like directness, for the most part. Many women prefer the sugar coating that I just don't do well...and they always seem to want me to tell them what they want to hear. My mother is like this and she lied so much that it made me go the opposite direction and become annoyingly honest, about everything.

I'm so impressed at the descriptiveness maddog shows in most posts. I wish I had that ability to really get to the meat of what I feel. Often I am like others here who need to see someone else say it and then I can go YES...that's how I feel as well. I can give words, but really describing it sometimes evades me.

I don't have many female friends, and I tend to cut most women out of my life at some point. It scares me when I meet new amazing women, that I do want to hang out with, and who sound like they really want to hang with me too...because I don't want to sabotage it by thinking it's all going to end up the same way it always does with females in my life. I don't want to ruin it. I want to keep them the way I perceive them at the start of the friendship.

I also have been plagued for many years by thoughts that people don't like me...and it's pushed away people who insist that they really did like me. I don't know why I just can't accept they do? The woman who attacked me at work a few months ago...that's on thing she yelled at me about. She yelled "You always thinking no one likes you" and really was harsh about it...amongst other things she said, including critiquing me on my "inability to abuse people very well"!:laugh::rolleyes:

My father used to make a point of telling me how all his friends liked me and how likeable I am...I could never work out why, but now I wonder if it's because he picked up on this about me as well? I just didn't like myself as a young person. I belittled everyone around me and attracted other people who did the same...and belittled myself as well. A female friend told me once "you shouldn't belittle yourself Philippa" and I knew she was right, but I couldn't seem to help it.

 

[TimeToHeal]

I am so glad this thread has popped up -- I find it quite pertinent right now.

I have multiple sexual assault/abuse type "events," in my history -- things that sort of stand out as "traumatic." But it is only very, very recently that I'm beginning to understand that my mother played a large part in making my childhood traumatic. Mostly in similar ways to what others have described -- I my case, I guess I would classify it as emotional abuse and neglect.

I do not recall there EVER being a time where I felt at all connected or attached to my mother. Even now, in my 30's, I have little contact with her, and really do not desire more.

A few years back I was in a partial hospitalization program. There were 4 therapists - 3 female and 1 male. I remember the male therapist (the only male therapist I've ever had, and by far one of the best), telling me that during one of their "team meetings," they discussed how all of them felt and recognized me to be "searching for a mother figure," among the female therapists. I was quite surprised by this, and even a little disgusted with myself. A "mother" was not something that I equated with anything positive, or comforting, or safe, or reliable. I am beginning to learn how wrong that is.

As far as female friendships I've had over the years -- I too, can identify them as either me being in a sort of caretaker roll or vice versa, but mostly the former. I had honestly never evaluated those friendships that way until reading this thread, so thank you guys for that, as it brings a piece of clarity.

I am in awe of how much I still have to learn about myself and my life....

 

[Meadowsweet]

It sounds like it would likely be a higher price (at least probably so) if you did open up and share with her - she apparently doesn't have the emotional resources to respond in any kind of helpful way.

That sort of sums it up.

It's kind of hard to grieve what was never there though, and perhaps that's the key to understanding why I feel so deeply hurt by female friends, but less so by my own mother = I never had the expectation that my mother would be there for me, despite having the need for someone to be. But female friends who I have become attached to as 'mother' figures, have been the type who act strong, and like the role of leadership and being there for others (my mum never pretended to be like that), so I build an expectation that they will 'be there' in times of need, and of course, they're not.

 

[Hashi]

I've protected her, and I'm happy that she lives without the hurt of knowing. She's like a child to me, who I'm glad I've protected because I do love her.

Does loving someone mean reversing your roles, accepting their denial of how they've hurt you, and being glad of that?

That may sound blunt but I'm frankly very taken aback by some of the things you're saying.

 

[Meadowsweet]

Hashi, I don't mind your bluntness at all. But to me, my mother's not the stranger that you see. She's someone that I've been around for 40 years. It's not that I've been led to believe she would be there, and then have been let down (that's what hurts with friends). My mother did all the things a mother has to do - we were fed, clean, read some pages of a book at night. So she tried. It's not like she did anything deliberately to hurt.

But, as Eleanor says quite rightly, "she apparently doesn't have the emotional resources to respond in any kind of helpful way. Then or now." And she genuinely doesn't. She described her memories of her childhood as her mum slamming doors and shouting at her dad. So, the way I see it, is that she genuinely didn't know how to do it, and she didn't have anyone to help her.

I'm left with the results, just like she was. But I've always wanted to be a mother, and I studied child development at school, and at 16 I did a BTEC in social care, so I had that interest that perhaps she didn't have. If she'd have been born 20 years later, she might have been a career woman (she met my dad when they were both training to be police officers), but she was born in a time when she was expected to have children once married, stop any hope of career, stay home and automatically know how to be a mother simply because she's female.

So I see someone trying and not getting it right.

 

[Notsowild]

Does loving someone mean reversing your roles, accepting their denial of how they've hurt you, and being glad of that?


That may sound blunt but I'm frankly very taken aback by some of the things you're saying.

I have the same relationship with my mother. My mother was my dads babysitter. She was 16 and he was 28. He seduced her and she became pregnant at 17. So they got married. She was also sexually abused as a young girl. Did she know how to parent? NO Was she a good mother? NO But she was a victim of my fathers abuse like us. There was not the women's shelters and help back then. There was 10 kids- where was she going to go? She left him once but eventually went back and they stayed married for 65 years.

She was also agoraphobic and suffered panic attacks when I was young. She was a weak women, never worked and relied solely on my father. I've had moments of anger with her but I've forgiven her.

 

[Hashi]

I think there's a difference between forgiving and being glad. It's the being glad that takes me aback. To be glad for how you have protected her makes me think not so much "something not right with this picture" (your relationship with your mother)- because that's been accepted. It wasn't the relationship you might have wanted. It makes me think "something not right with how you're now looking at this picture". You don't seem to be processing it.

My feelings towards my actual mother are neutral.

I can't help wondering if your feelings towards your mother are buried. It seems a bit unrealistic to think that you can have nothing but neutral feelings in this situation.

I always used to see my non-abusive but ineffectual father as a decent enough human who was very limited by his own upbringing and his sense of duty to his marriage vows. In the end, he is. But in the middle, I had to go through a lot of realisation that my feelings towards him weren't neutral at all. I needed him and he failed me. He didn't fulfil his role as a father. He was enabling. He was a coward. Whatever the reasons for that, I couldn't continue to always rationalise it and see his point of view. I had to acknowledge the harm and the hurt to me. I think forgiving someone without letting ourselves really feel that isn't forgiveness, it's more like numbing.

I know that your relationship with your mother is different from my relationship with my father. I'm only talking about the principle of letting ourselves feel instead of intellectualising. How much have you grieved for what your mother didn't give you? Have you allowed yourself to really feel the loss of it? Have you had a stage of feeling angry with her instead of staying with "it wasn't her fault". We get angry with people who die, and that's not their fault. It's just a natural part of feeling loss.

The way I see it, your feelings for your mother can only be neutral if you first accept that they're not neutral, they've been suppressed. That a big part of you isn't at all glad of how things were in your relationship. However much you love her. And then you work through those feelings.