BPD Why are people with borderline personality seen as bad people?

[mamachick]

Until the last DSM came out a year or two ago, BPD in the previous DSM IV was said to be caused by early childhood trauma. That has just recently changed.

Even now, experts are not saying you are born with it (genetic), they are just not saying that it is caused by this early childhood trauma. Having experienced trauma is now not part of the criteria to diagnose BPD. I don't have DSM in front of me, but I believe it still can be a learned behavior. Changing this one factor is a real game changer that I am still having trouble wrapping my head around.

My oldest daughter who is 40 is BiPolar and BPD. OMG she was a handful all of her life, but when she hit her teens, it was pure hell. She fit the diagnosis then and now still. Her father was bi-polar and very abusive toward me, therefore she witnessed enough abuse to be traumatized and meet old criteria for BPD.

When she was 11, I was remarried to a calm man and had 2 more daughters that are 18 mo apart. The first was a God Send. If I knew how my oldest would be before having 2 more-I would have had my tubes tied for certain. But I didn't. The second daughter was the calmest baby, a real pleaser, excelled at all she did. Geez, when she was 18 months old after reading stories and me telling her it was bed time, she would run down the hall and get in her crib and grab her blanky ready for sleep. She was the most well behaved and easy kid ever. The next was too pretty much, but more of a loner and a huge climber-getting into things, cutting her hair and dolls hair and silly things, nothing really of concern.

When the older one was only like 2 and 3, she knew she could not take a toy away from baby sister, so she would manipulate her and my husband thought she was so smart. It was bad behavior that the first time you see you might find humor, but then you put an end to that, arranging it not to work for her. She did this with playmates too. He thought she was SO smart. I think as they spend time away from us more, it is less evident. She hit teens and OMG here comes extreme manipulation at any cost. She was worse than the first except she never went down the wrong roads such as harmful people or drugs. She did the other things, playing people against each other, and much within the family. She is smart enough to know when to cut it too. She became an attorney after she bled her family dry of every bit of finance and energy she could gain, then estranged herself. The 3rd daughter is definitely not BPD-not a sign. But this second one-I knew she had experienced no trauma that I could possibly think of as I was over protective in certain ways and she just wasn't exposed.

I would have pegged her behavior as BPD from 15 on at least, except no trauma. Now that they have changed all of this, it is possible. I don't think its genetic though. I think it might come from a parent who is over pleasing. I was a neglected child so it was very important for me to be super mom. Well that did not work out so well for me I guess. The only Grace is that by the 3rd daughter, there was nobody left to manipulate or it didn't work because the adults were already the first two's puppets.

Also possible that it is genetic. Sure have had some unnecessary drama in own life, self created, but ended in teens when expected. I recall doing some things in middle school that could be considered this, except I felt bad about it and ceased that behavior as soon as it felt safe too. (stemmed from being bullied because I was new girl at school)

Given the new criteria, I do think my second daughter is BPD. She is a bully, a liar, manipulates people very smoothly. She is what is known and a high functioning BPD. I rejected that diagnosis for so long, but now do believe it is valid.

This may help understand or make things more confusing. I hope it helps in understanding viable scenarios.

 

[mamachick]

My mental health mentor basically once told me that BPD doesn't even really exist, that it's just a catch-all phrase for kids who got messed up by their parents' incompetency.

I think it definitely does exist even if caused by being messed up by parents incompetency. ADHD is a real catch all. BPD has certain characteristics. If your counselor thinks you don't have it, I would guess you don't. Everybody does manipulate at times, it is the degree that makes everyone else miserable (reasonable people). As another poster said, 2 sets of rules and being consistently intolerable of getting their own way when too old to behave this way. They view people as either wonderful (God), or horrible (Devil) and it changes based on their needs being satisfied.

 

[joeylittle]

There are 10 personality disorders currently, and they are grouped into three 'clusters'. The general thinking is that most personality disorders are formed in developmental years (in synch with when the personality is formed), though some also can appear to have an organic or genetic root cause. Not a whole lot is understood about them.

And also that it was impossible for me to be diagnosed with a personality disorder before the age of 18.

This is true - because it's difficult to separate the instability of the teen brain from the symptoms of a personality disorder.

@Abstract explained it pretty well. You can have BPD and never have experienced trauma. You can't have any form of PTSD without trauma.

 

[Abstract]

I would ignore your family members if I was you. The professionals treating you are the ones who know best and I think sometimes anyone who shows intense emotional states at times can be lumped under the same umbrella. Like one gets with PTSD.

 

[Symphony]

They view people as either wonderful (God), or horrible (Devil)

I can't say that I'm not like this, though. For us it's "safe person" or "unsafe person".

 

[Abstract]

A lot of people (and not only those with PTSD) have this type of thinking or related problems to an extent. Like abandonment issues for example too. Your therapists would know if the amount meets something like BPD. Things can also look the same at a glance but be different.

And the age thing is very relevant.

 

[Friday]

This is true - because it's difficult to separate the instability of the teen brain from the symptoms of a personality disorder.

@Symphony

Just to expand on this a little... Children go through normal developmental stages that are both needed & wanted (if highly annoying to parents or themselves), that if they didn't happen? Would spell major problems. Huge. The foundation of many disorders is actually based on a cognitive-emotional stage being skipped/never happening, which either creates a cascading effect of badness, or indicates one. We really, really, reeeeally need every annoying & obnoxious phase of childhood from the terrible 2s, to sociopathic adolescents, to moody teens (and everything else before/during/after, there are dozens of phases & cognitive leaps! as kids grow up. Super duper plastic brains. Changing all the time.).

Each and every single personality disorder that cannot be diagnosed until adulthood? Is on the list of normal developmental stages kids pass through. Some of these phases are short, others last months and years. So this year BPD, another year Psychopathy. Does that make them borderline or a psychopath? Nope! It makes them normal. It's when traits are enduring and persistent that we start to look at even the possibility of a personality disorder.

 

[Friday]

ADHD is a real catch all

No it isn't.

No more than PTSD is for everyone who ever stubbed their toe, was cheated on, wanted to die of embarrassment, or -ya know ;) - actually met the disorder requirements. Just because everyone and their brother's wife's cousin's dog claimed ADHD when it was the pop-disorder-of-the-moment doesn't mean they actually had it for 20 minutes before snake oil "cured" them :rolleyes:

ADHD it's it own very specific disorder.

(( And, yes, I do this when people reference PTSD incorrectly on ADHD boards, too. ))

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

 

[sun seeker]

ADHD it's it own very specific disorder.

I think @brat17's point here might have been that ADHD is used as a catch-all label, i.e., just as incorrectly as PTSD is used, and not that it doesn't actually have a specific definition.

Is there a disorder for people who have the annoying compulsion to explain people to each other instead of standing back and letting them misunderstand each other? I need another diagnosis, I'm feeling like I don't have enough of them. :rolleyes:;)

 

[recoveringfromptsd]

I think some here missed my point, I don't disagree that BPD can go back to developmental aspects, what I am saying is mental health PDOC's at least years back were quick to label people who had any personality issues at all with BPD, even those that were the result of PTSD. Keep in mind PTSD was not recognized like it is today. Even when it got recognized, and was documented in someone, PTSD informed treatment often never followed which is what happened with me.

Example: when I was in the state hospital, a big deal was made in the records about me not interacting with others. And other avoidance behaviors, when in fact there are typical in PTSD.

 

[joeylittle]

what I am saying is mental health PDOC's at least years back were quick to label people who had any personality issues at all with BPD, even those that were the result of PTSD.

That would be true - especially if someone engaged in self harm as well.

Self-harm was considered a main indicator of BPD for quite awhile. It's still an important symptom, but BPD is no longer the only disorder that self-harm can be attributed to.

 

[mamachick]

@Friday-I politely and respectfully disagree with you about ADHD being more of a catch all than other diagnosis, though due to this knowledge, it is being diagnosed a bit less today. I am not speaking of self or family diagnosis, but actual professional diagnosis with treatment, which is often stimulant drugs. Clinicians did not mind making that error as much as with some other disorders as it didn't attach a negative stigma that other diagnosis would. A clinician has to diagnose something, and if they are uncertain or depression is really low, they may use "adjustment disorder" for anything that involves life change (divorce, job change, new baby, etc). That is the safest diagnosis to start.

The percentage of kids in any given classroom who have been diagnosed and treated for ADHD is startling in the past 20 or more years. (think on the decline now). They use to not even ask the parents in the questionnaires about family trauma, domestic violence, and circumstances that may create behavior problems. They simply pegged the kid as ADHD and medicated. Way too much. Of course it is impossible to know how many people are misdiagnosed with ptsd or bpd or any other by a professional-where would we get that information? But any professional that has worked in mental health will tell you, ADHD has been over and mis-diagnosed regularly.

Even when professionals are following the very specific criteria, not everybody fits neatly into the diagnosis. Where I live (small city of 22,000), we lack professionals in area of traumatic brain injury sequel and many symptoms could fit into many other diagnosis.