Relationship Toxicity, Manipulation, Narcissism... Let's Have A Chat.

[heyheyhey]

Hmm. I'm going to keep arguing my point - if someone cheats on you multiple times, that is categorised as abuse.

Please read Why Does He Do That? Inside The Mind's of Angry and Controlling Men and just see if this makes sense to you, or not. Look, most people who are in an emotionally abusive relationship do not actually think it's abusive, there's generally a lot of confusion and it's hard to see. When you think 'abuser' you tend to think someone who is a nasty, horrible asshole all of the time, it's hard to reconcile the 'part time abuse with a partner who is also very loving, affectionate, or whatever else a lot of the time... this is why you can get caught up and think it's not abuse when it is - abuse follows a pattern "Happy period....tension build-up...abusive lash out....apology...honeymoon period/happy period".

Honestly the reason abuse can be so f*cked up, harrowing and difficult to understand and break away from is because it mixed in with this 'good stuff' - if it was always bad or there was no sense or hope it could get better then it would be a lot easier to deal with or make your mind up on it. Most people in abusive relationships struggle to see it as abuse because of the good qualities and empathy that they have developed for their abuser...

Also, couple's counselling won't work for an abusive person if they are an abuser - they will use it against you and use it to justify their own behaviour.

I'm not saying he is an abuser for sure, because I can't know that looking at your relationship, but if you're confused then you're confused for a reason - listen to that. And keep reading, keep investigating, keep listening to how you feel and noting what you think. I know it's probably scary to do it, but it can't help contacting a charity who support people in abusive relationships - even if it's to help clear it up in your mind. Honestly, better safe then sorry where your mental health and wellbeing are concerned.

*safe than sorry

 

[heyheyhey]

This is the only thing that makes me differ, the remainder in the post I 100% agree with.

My...

I think what I mean when I say that I don't take it out on anyone, is that I'm not being cruel - I could see how easy it can be to have a blow up with rage. But you're not being cruel, aggression could come from fear, or self-protection, but cruelty gets used because that person 'benefits' from it.

 

[boodle]

Hmm. I'm going to keep arguing my point - if someone cheats on you multiple times, that is categorise...

This is what it says on the Out of the FOG website.

Link Removed

Definition:

Emotional Abuse - Any pattern of behavior directed at one individual by another which promotes in them a destructive sense of Fear, Obligation or Guilt (FOG).

The Bruise that Doesn’t Show: Many people who are victims of abuse live in homes or environments where they have become so accustomed to the situation they consider it normal. They do not recognize it even IS abuse sometimes, because there is no physical injury; instead an ongoing emotional barrage takes place which can be just as damaging.

Moderator edit to remove copy-paste. Please see: Administrative - Copying And Pasting Articles: Guidelines

 

[Sighs]

they do it because they think they have a right to treat another human being like that and to control and bully them so that you will do what they want.

And here is some of the problem for me. My vet was in a command position for about 20 years. He actually DID have the right to treat other human beings like that to control and bully them so that they would do what he wanted. And he was very good at it. His ability to make people do difficult things perfectly each and every time, no matter how tired, hungry, cold etc they were kept them and others alive.

How that translates to my life? I'm a small middle aged woman. Last night I was carrying a bucket of horse feed which was pretty heavy for me and did not manage to keep up with my vet so the horse I was feeding (650kg 16.2 hands) stuck his head into the bucket my vet had. My vet then turns to me and snarls "Control your f*cking horse! You are such a f*cking idiot!" He then wanders off leaving me to deal with both horses. A short time later he and I are leading both the horses back to the paddock. Its dark and we are wearing head lamps. He says to me "Do you see the deer over there?" I say no. (I have terrible eyesight.) He says "there! where my headlamp is shining." I say "no - I don't see them". He snarls "Shut the f*ck up! You f*cking revel in being f*cking useless!"

So... sigh! Clearly this is verbal abuse. It occurs on a daily basis. Usually on at least two or three occasions every day. Why does it occur? His innate personality? His military training? His PTSD? Who knows? When I try to talk to him about it (which I have done on so many occasions and in so many ways) I get a couple of responses:
"If you don't want to be called a f*cking idiot, don't act like a f*cking idiot"
"I'm sorry I'm a terrible person. You would be happier without me"

Neither one is conducive to change.

 

[Sweetpea76]

The DSM V, Crit. E "alterations in arousal and reactivity" lists "Irritable or aggressive behavior".

If your sufferer lashes out, it wears on you to be the target of that for years. I don't care if you're Mother Theresa, you'd have days where you'd wonder if your sufferer wasn't taking some kind of pleasure in it, because as often as it happens, it seems like they must. Or if they're really just an asshole. Or if it really is emotional abuse.

No matter how fast you remove yourself, you still hear parts of it. Sometimes you have to listen to it all. Most of the time you can rationally understand it's a stress reaction, it's not malicious, there's no intent to be abusive... but if you're being told you're stupid, or useless, or a bad person, etc. over and over again, you're going to feel it after awhile.

If instead of words it was a punch in the face... it wouldn't matter if it was voluntary or involuntary, that shit is gonna hurt.

I think all supporters go through the "is it abuse or not" dilemma. And even after we make peace with it, on bad days we can question it again.

 

[Sighs]

Sigh! Someone made the very good analogy that its like a sick child vomiting all over you. Not the child's fault but if it happens day in day out the acid in the vomit will start to burn your skin... I feel like I've got third degree burns in a couple of places...

 

[Snowflakes]

@Sweetpea76 Your last line in your last post here just took my breath away. I mean, perhaps I'm to deep in the forest to see the trees, I never thought of that. Now I know why this little voice keeps whispering for me to walk out the door and never look back but I don't. This is a rough life, I wish I had Mother Theresa's strength.

 

[heyheyhey]

I never lash out at my boyfriend because I understand that how I feel has got nothing to do with him - even when it's my CPTSD and it feels very real to me - like he definitely doesn't care about me. Why would I be cruel to someone who is nothing but kind, supportive and caring to me? I think you can be suffering, but you can choose not to see someone's humanity and let yourself just off load and vent over them or you can choose to acknowledge that it's your own shit to deal with. Sometimes with PTSD you can withdraw and isolate and that can be hurtful, but you're not intentionally trying to hurt someone. With PTSD it can be very easy to have rage build up and sometimes it just spills out, it's not easy to control. But that doesn't MEAN that you have to be unkind and venomous to someone. I think that then its when it's abusive and PTSD is no excuse for it, you have a choice in how you treat people. You have a choice to manage you emotions in a different way and to not be unkind to the people who love you.

 

[Snowflakes]

@heyheyhey what you're saying is precisely the conflict that drives me nuts. She tells me everything you just wrote EXCEPT that she can't help it. And, yes, you're right because I keep thinking "but don't you have a choice?"

I think that is why I live by the post I just made above yours, that I must believe we are all different in how we react regardless of which side of the fence we are. I believe she truly can't help it and by meds, therapy, and time the abuse will end.

@tiredtexan please know that I am sorry for what you're going through but also know this thread, your thread, has helped and made a difference in my life. That you and thank all of you for your thoughts.

 

[shimmerz]

I think all supporters go through the "is it abuse or not" dilemma.

Um, I am going to have to disagree with that. I am here on this board because my spouse, who did not have PTSD, was like this and took it well beyond this type of behaviour.

My supporter puts up with my cowering in corners, shaking on the couch, crying 'NO NO NO, PLEASE NO.' in my sleep, and isolating.... but NEVER would I put him through abuse. Never.

And that is a choice I have made.

 

[dulcia]

that doesn't MEAN that you have to be unkind and venomous to someone.

I think what you're describing is PTSD in an aware person that is going through treatment.

My SO is receiving (what I consider) the bare minimum of treatment that doesn't even seem to scratch the surface of things he needs to work on. He is also no longer in regular contact with a lot of his old military buddies and does not have any other real chance to be around ex-military and/or other people with PTSD. There is also TBI involved with his PTSD, which can intensify things, right? (I don't know much about PTSD + TBI, aside from the amygdala hijack and fight/flight stuff.)

I think that if my SO could stop escalating during conversations and avoid saying cruel things, he would. It's a pain in the ass for him to apologize over and over and over, I assume. With that being said, I do recognize other parts of our relationship as abusive, because I think that (or like to hope that) there is a certain point that any human, despite what they have been through, knows when to stop or a line will be crossed. For example, he can't make himself stop arguing and belittling when escalating because of poorly managed PTSD + TBI but he can stop himself from choking me to the point of unconsciousness during an argument because his humanity or common sense wins in that situation. No, neither he nor I have ever been in that situation or anything near it, I am just using it as a hypothetical example.

You have a choice to manage you emotions in a different way and to not be unkind to the people who love you.

I don't think I clearly expressed myself above, but what I am basically trying to say is that I truly don't believe he is capable of making the choice to manage his emotions in away that is not unkind to the people who love him....at least not right now. Ideally, with more substantial treatment, he would be able to make that choice to be kind (or walk away), but I think his stress response is currently too f*cked up to do that, or at least to do that regularly.

 

[grimalkin]

I think what you're describing is PTSD in an aware person that is going through treatment.

Exactly. I've been reading a bit in the "sufferer" section as well. There is definitely a difference between those who are getting treatment successfully, those who are just starting out (and/or those whose issues are more debilitating) in their treatment, and those who are not currently in treatment (but have had some in the past that was somewhat successful) but have some coping tools, and those who have not had any treatment and/or it wasn't at all successful and they've stopped. It seems to be a bit of a spectrum, even.

My sufferer finally admits PTSD is a problem. He has not had treatment for the complex-PTSD of his childhood, only for work-related, which did help somewhat with some stress reduction, but that only lasted a few months, with sessions once a month, and it was all talk therapy, really (it was under workers comp, and only ONE psychiatrist team in the 4-hour-drive area would even consider dealing with workers comp psych treatment, so we took what we could). It didn't touch on his complex-PTSD because he didn't want to.

So, the only thing he has is the limited research he's done himself, his own stress- and anger-management tools he's developed himself (which may or may not be good long-term, because it's not actually addressing the core of the problem), and very limited talk therapy. He definitely falls somewhere into a spectrum of "never had treatment, so doesn't know what to do or how to control his outbursts," and "not currently in treatment, but has some coping tools."

His outbursts are lessened, now that our end is in sight, and he no longer has the constant stress of "being responsible" for someone else. But his outbursts, because he didn't have the coping tools, were angry and enraged mixed with belittling and awful. He has settled into self-aware, but unwilling to seek treatment. So, he's trying to manage, and he's making his plans to run and hide and isolate, and it's only a matter of time before he blows up again. He believes when he's triggered, it is because he is truly in danger of being hurt (IE, a misunderstanding between us has become an insurmountable, unforgivable infliction of pain on my part - not a misunderstanding that can be resolved).

He's convinced himself that the only way to be is alone and his triggers are a true telling of the danger of being hurt, and that seems to have more in common with those who are not in treatment and/or haven't had successful treatment. In his own limited self-management, he is becoming calm, and sees that as the end game - he is calm when planning to run and be alone, therefor that is the best thing to do.

And in the end, for someone who isn't interested in fighting his demons anymore, even if there is HELP out there for it, and there are people who successfully live with both complex-PTSD AND spouses and families, isolation is his only way to peace.