Relationship Toxicity, Manipulation, Narcissism... Let's Have A Chat.

[scout86]

Or is more helpful to label it as an unacceptable coping mechanism and work together to change it?

That, right there! And whether or not someone is willing to see that, and work to change it, is the important point.

Now, I don't think I've verbally abusive. If I'm operating at a verbal level, I'm generally pretty in control of what's going on. But (and I'm not proud of this) now and then I have a horse deliberately try to hurt me. When that happens, if I'm in the wrong frame of mind, I'm quite capable of losing my temper and beating the tar out of the horse. What stops me from actually hurting them? I eventually realize what I'm doing. But I guarantee you, in the heat of the moment, I don't stop to think, I react. The only time I've ever hit a person ( as an adult) has been if they sneaked up on me and startled me. Then, I well might take a swing at someone, with the intent to hit. Usually, I realize what I'm doing and can pull the punch. But I really don't think the initial move is something I have any control over. I strive to 'realize what I'm doing" faster all the time. I also strive to follow my T's advice that there's a lot of possible responses between doing nothing and beating someone to a pulp. I actually practice this stuff in my head, hoping it will be more available when I actually need it. I can imagine that other people might have a similar problem with the way they talk to people.

I had a good friend who came back from Iraq & Afghanistan with PTSD. He'd been fine before, so I'm sure it was hard to deal with. He also started out not believing PTSD was a real thing, which also didn't help. I have no awareness of life without PTSD, so my version of reality seems 'normal' to me. Anyway, we talked about what he was going through some. One of the things that grieved him the most was how short tempered he was and how much he was yelling at his wife and kids. He KNEW he was doing it, after the fact. If he could have stopped himself mid-rant, I'm sure he would have. He wasn't like that before. I think guilt over they way he was treating people was probably a major contributing factor to his suicide. It caused him a lot of pain. (It caused his family a lot of pain too, of course.)

I think this is complicated. I think there are people out there who think it's ok to say anything they want to anyone they want, anytime they want. Some of them get PTSD, and that adds to the problem. I think there are people out there who react in a verbally abusive way when they're triggered, and maybe they wouldn't have done it before. I think learning not to do it is easier for some people than others. I don't think there's a clear, cut and dry line between what's tolerable and what's not. I think everyone has to decide that for themselves.

why is it not a choice to emotionally abuse your partner by withdrawing / isolating from them?

I believe you when you say you experience that as 'abuse'. Totally don't get it though. To me, when I'm isolating, I'm doing people a favor.

 

[shimmerz]

Because I don't see a bridge between this type of behaviour and attitude, which I see as aggressive and violent:

My vet then turns to me and snarls "Control your f*cking horse! You are such a f*cking idiot!" He then wanders off leaving me to deal with both horses. A short time later he and I are leading both the horses back to the paddock. Its dark and we are wearing head lamps. He says to me "Do you see the deer over there?" I say no. (I have terrible eyesight.) He says "there! where my headlamp is shining." I say "no - I don't see them". He snarls "Shut the f*ck up! You f*cking revel in being f*cking useless!"

And this. ^^^

How can one possibly work together to change something when it seems pretty obvious that there is no respect for the person who would like that change? It sounds like he is just fine with the way things are going for him and the way he speaks to others.

and work together to change it?

I see a very large disconnect here. And it won't change until he makes the decision that the losses he incurs due to his lack of self awareness are worth the effort of actually working at healthy relationships.

 

[scout86]

How can one possibly work together to change something when it seems pretty obvious that there is no respect for the person who would like that change?

That's the part of all of this that concerns me the most. And, I suppose, 'respect' might be hard to measure from outside a relationship. For me, there would HAVE to be acknowledgement that there was a problem and it needed to be dealt with. And then there'd have to be work and progress in dealing with it.

And it won't change until he makes the decision that the losses he incurs due to his lack of self awareness are worth the effort of actually working at healthy relationships.

Exactly. And, sometimes, you have to lose something big to realize what your behavior costs you. Sometimes, I really think the best thing a 'supporter' can do is walk away, and mean it, because that's the price you ought to pay for mistreating people.

 

[Sighs]

Well, we wouldn't want our infantry soldiers to be aggressive and violent! Oh wait - we take young men full of testosterone and then we train them to be aggressive and violent and disciplined. We make damn sure that their fight/flight/freeze response only EVER is expressed as fight. Then we send them overseas to war repeatedly until their brains become permanently damaged from blast exposure, repeated TBI and PTSD. The brain damage means that the discipline we instilled is less effective. Then we dump them back into civilian life with no de-training. Their fight response then triggers almost all the time so they lash out repeatedly for little to no reason. Yep. Total arse. Abusive bastard. You should leave him.

And then we wonder aloud why our veterans kill themselves.

I'm going to try this one last time - can anyone tell me why isolating is not a choice and lashing out is?

 

[shimmerz]

You should leave him.

You should do what you want to do. But be aware that there may well be a cost to you if you continue to expose yourself to behaviour that is verbally or physically assaultive in nature.

can anyone tell me why isolating is not a choice and lashing out is?

If isolation is used as a form of punishment or manipulation towards others, then yes, I would agree, it is abusive. As Scout mentioned, there are those of us who use isolation as a means of protecting their SO. That may well be misplaced and hurtful but I know for myself that with the help of my SO, his constant encouragement that I am NOT toxic to him, that he does want me around, I have turned this behaviour around with him.

How? Why? Because I never, ever, want to hurt him. He is my supporter and he deserves all that I can give him in return, which is rarely as much as he gives to me. And I let him know every day how much I appreciate his efforts and how they have changed the trajectory of my life.

 

[Sighs]

If isolation is used as a form of punishment or manipulation towards others, then yes, I would agree, it is abusive.

My question was about whether it was a choice not whether it was abusive.

And I come full circle back to where I started from: is it abuse regardless of motivation or does it depend on the intentions of the person exhibiting the behaviour? And if the latter, why are people so quick to explain away certain behaviour while deeming other behaviour unacceptable?

Put another way:

If a sufferer isolates because he is intending to punish or manipulate then its emotional abuse, but if he isolates because he is feeling overwhelmed and needs time out then his emotional and or physical abandonment of his significant other is... ok?

If my vet speaks to me like that because he is intending to punish or manipulate then its verbal abuse, but it he speaks to me like that partly out of habit (he spent 25 years barking at soldiers and honestly doesn't realise how harshly he speaks) and partly because any failure to quickly and perfectly follow instructions is a trigger for him (mistakes and delay get people killed) then that is... ok?

I'm sorry if I seem argumentative about this - its something I genuinely struggle with on a daily basis because I know the way he treats me is not ok. But I have so much understanding and empathy for him that I can't condemn his behaviour either. Sigh!

 

[joeylittle]

@heyheyhey - I know you've taken a break from the thread. But I want to address this:

my 'stress response', pain, panic, fear, rage was through the roof but I never abused my boyfriend. I'd never Abuse anyone. Why? Because I have empathy and I have a level of behaviour for myself, I would never abuse anyone no matter how I feel.

That's great. That's you. That's not everyone.

I am not at all saying abuse is OK. I'm not saying that PTSD justifies it, either. What I'm saying is, different people, different trauma histories and genders and ages....it all plays a part. Stress is inherent to PTSD. How people process their stress in any given moment will be influenced by many, many factors.

I'd probably guess that, since you have never directed your rage at your boyfriend, you probably directed it at yourself? I'm talking about before you learned to manage it. I'm late-onset as well, and I'm a little shocked at the levels of self-harm I was at, briefly. But I don't explode. Never have. I implode.

If it were then everyone with a TBI and PTSD would be doing it and we aren't. Managed or unmanaged (as my PTSD has been).

No, there are too many symptoms; everybody does not do everything. That's just a fact. And lets think for a moment about gender conditioning - just that. It does not surprise me that women can say they don't lose control of their anger in others' directions. How much of that is either gender conditioning, or just legitimately, gender? I'm a woman, so I don't know. But it's always worth remembering, especially for sufferers who post in here.

I don't mean to offend any of you or come across as arrogant, just cruelty is the one thing that I really struggle to tolerate or feel is okay in any scenario.

I don't know that anyone here would disagree with you. PTSD is not an excuse. Ever.

But it is sometimes, a transitory period where it explains things. And if you can (as a sufferer) think about your good days and bad days, plus your overall arc of managing the disorder - you can probably think of days when you knew what the mentally healthy course of action would be, but you didn't do it. Might have been you were too tired, or it was too big...we all have bad days.

Bad days are not an excuse for pervasive abusive behavior. And every sufferer is (I believe) responsible for how they interact with the world - even when they f*ck up.

And I come full circle back to where I started from: is it abuse regardless of motivation or does it depend on the intentions of the person exhibiting the behaviour? And if the latter, why are people so quick to explain away certain behaviour while deeming other behaviour unacceptable?

Intention.

If someone verbally lashes out because they are flooding and believe in that moment they are in physical danger - no matter how horrible the language, I would not call it anything other than PTSD. I've broken things, not on purpose. It's PTSD.

If I have decided to share my life with someone and they become my scapegoat for my own anxiety - that's not PTSD. It's me not learning how to manage myself. It's laziness, or avoidance - doesn't matter which. I still need to be the best human being I can be.

I think it's easier to excuse isolation, because it is not as conspicuous as lashing out - that's all. Taking your feelings out on someone else does active harm to the relationship. Disappearing does what I'd call passive harm. It's all bad, but the active harm is more obvious.

No matter how hard a sufferer is trying, how hard they are working in therapy - they are going to make mistakes. I think mistakes can be worked through, so long as both sides are willing to see it as such.

But there's a difference between that, and using lashing out as a coping tool. That is taking advantage of your partner. And taking advantage of a partner is a kind of abuse - it's an abuse of the relationship, and eventually, abusive towards the partner as well.

 

[caligirl03]

I totally hear you @Sighs. I think the bottom line is that regardless of intent or driving motivation, the end result is still the same. And it's hurting us all, including our sufferers. Let's get these men (and women!) the best possible help they so clearly need and deserve.

 

[Friday]

For the sufferers who cower in a corner, or run away, hide, cry, isolate, etc. in response to stress, stressors, or triggers... That's as much of a choice for you as lashing out is for me and others. AKA you NEVER have to do it. Ever. You simply choose not to. Ever.

Sound insane? It's not.

And don't try to whitewash it with fear-response (or freeze, or fawn) is PTSD & okay, but fight response isn't PTSD and is never okay.

They're both PTSD. 2 sides of the same coin.

Those of us who kick into rage instead of fear are going through the exact same fight/flight process you are. So the next time you trigger hard? Don't do anything. Don't cry. Don't hide. Don't self harm. Don't run away. Get yourself immediately and completely under control. That's what those of us who lash out have to do. For real. Lock that shit down. Immediately.

Once you're perfect at it, and would never react badly in response to stress, stressors, or triggers... go ahead and tell me the reason I lash out is because I'm an abusive f*ck who doesn't have any respect for other people, not even the people I love more than anyone in the world. And, moreover, that I'm lying about loving people to begin with, and that no one should ever love me or anyone like me.

 

[caligirl03]

For the sufferers who cower in a corner, or run away, hide, cry, isolate, etc. in response to stress, st...

This is everything.

 

[Snowflakes]

@Sighs That's exactly it. But it's a struggle and some days very difficult to not walk out the door to never look back. What keeps me going is hope.

 

[Sighs]

Love you @Friday!