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Relationship Toxicity, Manipulation, Narcissism... Let's Have A Chat.

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Sigh!

Yes, my vet does lash out at others - friends, family and strangers. Its the main reason why he...

If you think isolating is abuse then you don't understand the definition of abuse. I am not isolating to harm or punish or control my partner and to say my partner experiences my temporary isolation, which I also explain and apologise for, is an insult to people that experience real abuse.

*to say my partner experiences it as abuse is an insult to people who do experience abuse.
 
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@heyheyhey - I know you've taken a break from the thread. But I want to address...

I get that, thanks for pointing that out. I see what you guys are saying about different sufferers having different cooing mechanisms, but I am pointing out that a lot of what is being discussed is cruel, dehumanising and seemingly abusive here - what I'm saying is that it's important to not let it get crowded.

If someone lashes out and gets angry, I can see that, but if someone is consistently cruel or a serial cheater - that seems more abusive. And I'm trying to say PTSD is not a reasonable explanation for it - there is also something else going on, the faulty or mindset.
 
One of my friends with PTSD is more aggressively 'f*ck you' with it and I get that that is a result of her experience and how her PTSD manifests. But she isn't repeatedly cruel and abusive. That's the difference. Don't get it twisted.

If you guys are actually reading my posts - I have repeatedly said that there is a difference between rage and lashing out (which can be PTSD and how someone is reacting to pain and stress) and repeated cruelty - which is abuse.

And as I said before, the posts which you seemed to have ignored, I am simply saying this because i don't want you guys to suffer abuse unnecessarily and find yourselves totally f*cked up from it.
 
I asked you to consider if it's abuse for your sake. At the end of the day it's your relationship and it's your trauma and it's you that is having the toxic effects from it. It doesn't make any shred of difference if I end up agreeing with you or not.

I'm stepping out of the debate and reading anymore posts now because it's just circular and I've said what I have to say and taken on board what you guys have explained to me that sometimes rage is how suffers respond.

I'm out.
 
Last night I was carrying a bucket of horse feed which was pretty heavy for me and did not manage to keep up with my vet so the horse I was feeding (650kg 16.2 hands) stuck his head into the bucket my vet had. My vet then turns to me and snarls "Control your f*cking horse! You are such a f*cking idiot!" He then wanders off leaving me to deal with both horses. A short time later he and I are leading both the horses back to the paddock. Its dark and we are wearing head lamps. He says to me "Do you see the deer over there?" I say no. (I have terrible eyesight.) He says "there! where my headlamp is shining." I say "no - I don't see them". He snarls "Shut the f*ck up! You f*cking revel in being f*cking useless!"

I am grasping to see where this is a PTSD response. Where has he been triggered in this scenario? Where is he feeling that his safety has been compromised? From the above quote I see baiting. And no, a person who does this is not ready for a relationship. Doesn't mean they don't deserve love, but they do have one hell of a ton of introspective work to be done.

This is not a PTSD reaction. This is treating someone poorly. And that is a choice. And as much as we sufferers are responsible for our actions, so are our supporters. Supporters need to keep themselves safe and healthy. Just like sufferers do.

Now, give me a scenario in this thread where someone is actually triggering these sufferers and I may have a different response. But as far as this thread goes and the examples in it.... PTSD should not be referenced as a cause for this type of behaviour.
 
Why does it occur? His innate personality? His Military training? His PTSD? Who knows? When I try to talk to him about it (which I have done on so many occasions and in so many ways) I get a couple of responses:
"If you don't want to be called a f*cking idiot, don't act like a f*cking idiot"
"I'm sorry I'm a terrible person. You would be happier without me"

Neither one is conducive to change.
You're right - neither one is conducive to change.

And I would say at this point - since it's clearly a pattern, and both the 'default' responses he gives are dead-ends - this is a communication issue: irregardless of PTSD, military training, or personality.

I can understand, in the horse scenario - why he'd be tense, both times. They both have to do with managing the animal, and being aware of potential accidents (food) and spook-threats (deer).

So even if we say: those were stress responses...there is a follow-up conversation, where you and he talk about the intensity of the stress responses, and how he needs to remember that you aren't the enemy, you're not in his infantry, and you're not a target for his stress. He would need to accept that what he did was symptomatic, and he'd need to commit to a plan on managing it - ideally with a therapist, though also could be done without. You'd need to know a process by which the two of you will handle it the next time it comes up.

I know that all sounds like a lot, but it's really a 10-15 minute conversation, when the communication tools exist.

When those tools aren't there - they need to be built, and it takes a little longer. It can be couples counseling, it can be a workbook...it can be all sorts of things. But something can and should be done.

Not every relationship is going to be the same model of give and take and kind language. Ideally, people who are blunt end up with other blunt people, and vice-versa....your guy sounds blunt, and he doesn't have to change that. But the content of his words needs to improve. There are more responses than these:

"If you don't want to be called a f*cking idiot, don't act like a f*cking idiot"
"I'm sorry I'm a terrible person. You would be happier without me"

Really. The first one is deflection, the second one is emotional manipulation.

Neither is communication.
 
I'm going to respect heyheyhey's wish to dip out of the conversation and not tag them, but I disagree with this: "Eh, sorry but no one's stress response is too f*cked up to do that." (bolded and italicized for emphasis)

I think it is entirely possible that someone's stress response is too f*cked up to properly regulate their fight/flight response in the moment, which results in a lashing out response.

can anyone tell me why isolating is not a choice and lashing out is?

I think the point here might be that isolating can be seen as a coping mechanism (or preferred reaction) in lieu of lashing out.

Now, give me a scenario in this thread where someone is actually triggering these sufferers and I may have a different response. But as far as this thread goes and the examples in it....
"For example, when escalating he has a pretty standard pattern he follows: starts using a harsher tone during a conversation about our relationship (to include sarcasm, multiple questions directed at me in rapid fire, use of fake "pet names"); introduces and becomes fixated on a topic unrelated original conversation (anti-sanctuary city funding and hiring freeze); focuses the conversation on my connection to the unrelated topic (you supported this and I can't be with someone who thinks like that); introduces insults/belittling comments (you are so immature to support something like that. you don't understand the real world but you think you do just because you went to *insert college name here*) while simultaneously framing himself as more superior (I actually experienced the real world and I know what it's like while you live in a little bubble); ignores any and all grounding statements (I don't want to argue, let's talk when you are more calm, etc.) and obsesses over the unrelated topic......" (italicized for emphasis)
^This was an example I gave in an early comment of what I consider PTSD escalation. I tend to alter small things in my stories sometimes, in case my SO were to wander over here. Maybe that was a mistake in this instance. In this example, the unrelated topic that he obsessed over during a conversation about our relationship was actually the travel/immigration ban. I have a parent from the Middle East and my SO deployed to combat zones more than once in the Middle East. It is an issue that comes up in our relationship often, as might be expected. To add insult to injury, that parent of mine was killed unexpectedly years ago, so it is an issue I am particularly emotional and defensive about. We have agreed not to talk about politics because it turns into a circular argument, which is not productive, and often times the conversations turn argumentative. However, he sees things about T and the travel ban and all kinds of other political stuff on social media and on tv and when around his family they talk about it....so he can keep it in for a while, but eventually it seems to be too much and he brings it up and is already upset about it. It's as if I am the scapegoat for all of the immigrants that want to come to the US and I am the problem because I identify as half Middle Eastern when, in fact, I should identify solely as American because the United States is the greatest country in the world and I would know how awful Middle Easterners really were if I had fought over there (paraphrasing). In addition, the "pet name" he uses (sarcastically) when escalating is the same his ex used to call him when they were arguing. The same ex who cheated on him while deployed and then went after (and received some of) his military assets. So the trigger there? Recent politics and news coverage surrounding the travel ban of people with Middle Eastern origin. Another trigger? I sometimes do things that remind him of his ex. I haven't learned them all yet because he isn't aware of all of them, but once we identify one, I try not to do it again (i.e. laughing while arguing is a massive one). So YES that may be unmanaged this and that and poor coping skills and crappy communication and an already skewed morale. But another big factor is combat PTSD, fighting in a foreign country against a foreign enemy, and the overwhelming sense of patriotism that can come with all of that. There is also admitted survivor's guilt and (not admitted but mentioned) guilt over innocent lives taken. So I also think it is possible the grandiose, holier than thou machismo could be an attempt to make up for or rationalize those deaths.

I guess the overall point I am taking away is.....what's it matter what you call it? If I feel poorly treated or unsupported, it shouldn't matter if it meets the definition of "abuse" or not. If he isn't seeking treatment or taking other constructive steps to modify or curb his reactions, it shouldn't matter if he has "narcissistic" qualities or not.

I've come to realize that my initial desire to compare different qualities or symptoms to the more common PTSD symptoms was to broaden my ability to respond appropriately to situations in my relationship. Meaning, I am working on how I can manage my behavior in response to PTSD escalation incidents, but could there possibly be other factors at play here? And if there are, can I try to identify them enough to figure out additional ways I can manage my behavior to deal with those factors, as well? I think concern with categorizing or labeling may have clouded that, as well as a few instances of generalization.

All in all, I did not come here in an attempt to diagnose or label behavior. I can't change him, I can only change me, as we've all heard many times before.
 
Where has he been triggered in this scenario? Where is he feeling that his safety has been compromised?

We were working outdoors at dusk. His hypervigilance is through the roof because its contact (in the military sense of contact with the enemy) hour. Because I failed to keep pace with him he got to the horses first. He now has two 650kg horses about to erupt into a physical fight over his one bucket of food - and his "back up" or "six" is f*ck arsing about 10 paces away sternly calling the horse's name. I would certainly feel like my safety was potentially compromised.

As for the deer - I proved to him that I cannot see enemy approaching. This makes me a liability he has to be responsible for rather than a task element he can use to assist. He now has to navigate not only his way through the bush with two horses but two horses AND a numpty. (Bear in mind this occurred about 5 minutes after the first incident. I doubt he had his physical stress response under control again yet.)

When people say things like "he never really came home from the war" they mean it literally. By way of example, he was talking to me on the phone one evening about his trip through a state forest. He said "We (him and his little dog) followed X track almost all the way but about 1200m before we would have broken through to Y road there was a tree down over the track. We weren't ambushed but we couldn't get through so had to re-trace our steps." He wasn't trying to be funny. In his mind he was genuinely relieved that he wasn't ambushed. (Lord only knows who he thought might ambush him in an Australian state forest...) One of the reasons he bought our house is that it is on a reverse slope making it easier to defend from attack. Etc etc. I know this is not rational. So does he. But he can't stop thinking that way.

@joeylittle - If I could like your post 100 times over I would. I totally agree with what you are saying. Unfortunately there are some barriers to building those communication skills which I am hoping to work on.
 
I think it is entirely possible that someone's stress response is too f*cked up to properly regulate their fight/flight response in the moment, which results in a lashing out response.

Not only possible but likely for some. See below:

Combat trained persons are trained intentionally to hate and be aggressive in response when their stress cup is full.

you can see why a veteran is within so much internal turmoil, so much rage, hatred and anger. It’s got nothing to do with you the person standing there, it is merely a consequence that you happen to be within the firing line when the smallest thing is added to an already full cup of internal stressors.

Taken from @anthony's article Understanding Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD)
 
@Sighs , I'm not a combat vet, but totally get what you're taking about. (Had a funny conversation with my T a few weeks ago about the chair i always sit in. He says he doesn't have many clients who sit there these days, but it's clearly the best spot in the room, as it's laid out.)

Here's a thought for your guy. He's not operating on up to date, accurate, information. The theory he's working on seems fine (too me), but, to be accurate, he needs to correctly assess who he's working with, what their true limitations are, what his actual surroundings are, etc. I run into this in different places, but I run into it. For me, the best motivation for adjusting has been that I see the value, and set great store by 'up to date, accurate, information.' Operating based on out dated, inaccurate information is dangerous. In a lot of ways.
 
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