Sexual Assault Tea, consent, and the marriage bed

[desiderata310]

If she or he said no and the other continued anyway, THAT is rape

The devil is in the details.

Lady TOTALLY gives the cold shoulder. Said no, gotten and dealt with the 'shove off', the huff and the rotten sleep after (because let's face it, that's a lot of negative vibes for someone to be giving off ) And dealt with the emotional consequences of the next day from hubby.

Now, a few days later, after he was 'over' being angry at and decided that he wanted (knowing that she had to get up extra early the next day) to have sex again late at night THIS TIME, she gives in. WHY? Because the last few days have taken an emotional toll. She's tired of him being snippy and it hurt that he called her a frigid bitch.

I'm hearing some say that this is emotional blackmail and is rape... but is it? oR is it just a couple with shitty communication and an immature partner?

 

[Deleted member 541]

@anonymous. So are you saying.... your tired, your partner wants sex, you don't and say "nope not tonight" he persist in begging, pleading, and begging some more. You finally do, so this is rape because he coerced you????????????

 

[scout86]

Or am I coming at this from a skewed perspective of someone who's never been in a healthy relationship?

From what I know, I think the answer to that is "yes. You've never been in a healthy relationship." Not your fault! NOT because something is 'wrong' with you. But, the two relationships I'm aware of don't come anywhere close.

I say that because I think, once upon a time, I got incredibly lucky and I WAS in a reasonably healthy relationship. Not without its complications, to be sure, but I think it could serve as a model for how this stuff 'should' work.

Here's my take on 'taking one for the team'. My ex, near as I can tell, had about zero sex drive. (Might not have been true.) Well, as it turns out, under the right circumstances, I enjoy sex. Before we got married, he seemed plenty interested. One we were married, not so much. I'm not good at initiating, for a number of reasons that I probably should work on, if I'm ever back a situation where it's safe to that. So, it kind of went from one a week, to once a month, to once a year. It seemed, to me, that he could have made SOME kind of effort, if he actually cared about me and the relationship. (Which he actually didn't.) If the situation had been reversed, if have tried to come up with a compromise we could both live with. But because I loved him, not because I was afraid to say 'no'.

That one good relationship I mentioned? If it wasn't for him in sure I'd be a hermit. I really mean that. He knew I had issues. Knew it, and understood it before I did! And helped me see it and understand it too. And was extremely patient. Was willing to stop, no matter what, if he had any doubt I was ok. Checked in with me all the time to make SURE I was ok. I said "no" a couple times just to see if I could. (I could.) My theory is, he may have actually loved me. (I have no explanation for that and, to this day, I think I must be missing something, or he just didn't know me long enough.) He died, BTW. I can't help but wonder what things would have been like if things had gone differently.

I like @Friday's thing about enthusiasm. This isn't supposed to be about people owning people or owing people either. It's supposed to be about love, and caring. About giving freely, not taking.

He feels rejected. He will get over it. She needs sleep.

Coming from the perspective of being repeatedly rejected the last 11 years of my marriage. I totally get that sometimes your partner really isn't in the mood. It softens the blow a lot if the 'rejection' at least acknowledges your feelings.

As far as Cosby goes, he admitted to buying drugs to use to drug women in a previous deposition. That pretty much looks like an MO to me. The phone calls? I find that confusing, but I know lots of weird stuff happens in those situations. I'm willing to write it off to that. You drug someone to have sex, it's rape. Unless they asked you to dug them, but I've never heard of that one.

 

[Deadman]

I think some of the confusion here is based on the word coercion. Begging, pleading, volunteering to cook breakfast etc are not coercion. Admittedly only one of those things approaches any level of maturity.

coercion

the use of express or implied threats of violence or reprisal...or other intimidating behavior that puts a person in immediate fear of the consequences in order to compel that person to act against his or her will. --Merriam-Webster dictionary of law

 

[scout86]

Just stressing it says "fear of consequences". Not death. Not bodily harm. Consequences. Which, IMO, could include dealing with whatever whining and pouting follows. If it's bad enough that you REALLY dread it, it's coercion. because the intent is to make you pay a price for not going along.

 

[desiderata310]

I think some of the confusion here is based on the word coercion.

Perhaps...
Going back to the 'tea and consent' idea waking up to your SO trying to mount you in the morning with the excuse that you wanted it last night is no ok. (or...errrmmm... trying to pour tea down your throat)
So this goes back to the devil being in the details. It's all in HOW it was done?

Bare with me on being slow. It's not just for me, I'm thinking there might be others out there that feel like this is a difficult concept as well. PERSONALLY I'm trying to figure out if I ever had normal interactions.

 

[Deadman]

Just stressing it says "fear of consequences".

"Your honor I robbed the bank because I was afraid my spouse would whine and pout" wouldn't be much of a defence.

 

[desiderata310]

Just stressing it says "fear of consequences". Not death. Not bodily harm. Consequences.

This
At some point for me... THIS became the overriding factor in all behavior
But I can't HONESTLY call it all rape... right? THAT doesn't make sense.

 

[Deadman]

I'm thinking there might be others out there that feel like this is a difficult concept as well.

It is a VERY difficult discussion even without issues of PTSD thrown on top. I admire your courage in tackling it.

I'm trying to figure out if I ever had normal interactions.

Good question. How do any of us know what 'normal' is when it comes to interpersonal relationships? We only know the ones we've had and maybe those of our parents.

 

[Deadman]

At some point for me... THIS became the overriding factor in all behavior
But I can't HONESTLY call it all rape... right? THAT doesn't make sense.

Ah but you said he held you down after you said no. That is not the threat of force. It is force.

 

[desiderata310]

you said he held you down

Sorry Sorry Sorry.. I should explain what I meant by that.
After a while with my ex, I didn't fight. Ever. I just blindly DID because saying no meant that I had about a 40/60 chance of things getting ugly.
At some point I pretty much quit fighting- regardless of what I wanted or didn't want because the fear or reprisal/physical consequences (and please understand I actually reference two different husbands in this post. I'm referring to #2)After a while there really wasn't much need to hold me down but he did enjoy using that power to get me to hold still to tie me down because I wasn't going to fight him doing that- then did things that I couldn't hold still for.

Confusing and confounding. The question in my mind I suppose is are there things I was complicit in doing at that point? Again, I'm down in the weeds of my own history. These are things that I've had a wicked time hashing out alone.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

THIS TIME, she gives in. WHY? Because the last few days have taken an emotional toll. She's tired of him being snippy and it hurt that he called her a frigid bitch.

I'm hearing some say that this is emotional blackmail and is rape... but is it? oR is it just a couple with shitty communication and an immature partner?

I wouldn't call it rape. She said yes the 2nd time. Poor reasons but nonetheless, she said yes.

I DO call it emotional blackmail. Because it is. It isn't healthy. But I personally would not call THAT rape. What I would call rape is the orginal time he wanted sex, he somehow forced it. Whether that is physical, emotional, coersion (which isn't black & white), or some how forced it AFTER she said no. If she later said yes, before I say "nevermind, its not rape because she said yes", I would want to know why she said yes. Was she drugged? Was she physically beaten? Was she threatened? I mean, what changed her mind? Was it just nagging? Well, nagging; if that is all it was, I personally would not call that rape because she had other choices. Get up and sleep in another bed, leave, sleep in her car. I mean, there ARE other things she could do without just saying yes to make him shut up.

Just my personal opinions on it.