Feelings of shame stirred up by unresponsive therapist

[scout86]

I can handle power imbalances just fine in many other settings. In therapy? It terrifies me

Does that surprise you? With the tiny little bit you've now told us about what happened, this makes perfect sense. "Therapy", all by itself, is kind of terrifying. At least that's my experience. "You want me to do what? Trust you? Yeah, right! I hardly think so!" Then if you've had the actual, literal experience of that trust being betrayed? I wonder if she had any idea what she was actually asking when she asked you to say "yes" to her coming closer. From what you've said, it seems quite possible she didn't. She was asking you to allow closeness you didn't want, that's one thing. But she was also, literally, asking you to say "yes" to it, whether that was your real answer or not. That seems like a big deal, to me. And it seems, to me, that what she was asking was too much, at the time.

In her defense, I guess, she maybe had no way to know that. And I can see where that might be a way to open a conversation. I don't know.

Maybe the core issue is the resistance to closeness.

Maybe. But it seems to me you have good and valid reason to resist closeness. The trick is figuring out when it's ok and when it's not? And maybe in understanding that the risks and the outcome isn't necessarily always the same, even if it feels like it in the moment?

 

[Justmehere]

It’s hard for me to assess the wisdom of the exercise we were doing. I did agree to try it, and she had given me other options of what we could do in therapy that day.

Once in equine therapy, the therapist did something like this - she moved around in the outdoor arena and I got to say where I liked her to be the most. Some places where she stood triggered me, but it wasn’t a big deal... we found where was ok.

It wasn’t about where she stood. The therapist stood closer and further away all the time. The real goal is the experience of saying yes or no, and knowing it’s ok to say both.

My therapist now says I’m super good with boundaries and saying no, and accepting boundaries of others.... but not yes.

In this excercise with this therapist I said no, and she didn’t budge. It was a strong no. I told her I can’t get myself to say yes, and I didn’t know why. We have actually sat much closer before, and we have even sat on the floor once, at my request. What was different this time? It was intentional? And she said she wanted to sit closer. Something about her wanting to be closer really changed it for me. Like, “why do you want to be close to me?”

She offered different ideas and I eventually said yes to moving closer, and I was anxious about it. Visibly anxious. She backed up, and that’s when the command to regulate came. I was able to tell her it would have been more helpful if she said “let’s ground” or something. Something where she wasn’t just telling me to fix myself.

Gosh. I write about it now and it still gets me. It is still jarring. What the heck is up with me? Why did connection have to feel so all or nothing? Either she’s close and I’m spooked or I’m told to do what I do all week, alone - regulate.

I did regulate, by myself, by pretending to be somewhere else.

When I was triggered in the next session, this last one, she once said, let’s try breathing more slowly. She is hearing me.

I don’t know how to explain to her that her wanting to be close is like a thing. She’ll just take it as me not trusting her. She tried to point out she hasn’t hurt me for all the times we have met. I know. I know. But she hasn’t ever also gotten commanding and said she wanted to be closer. And when someone has wanted to be criminally close to me in the past... it’s just not that simple as intellectually knowing someone is safe.

 

[scout86]

My therapist now says I’m super good with boundaries and saying no, and accepting boundaries of others.... but not yes

To me, that's a "thing" but it's a different thing. I have a hard (nearly impossible) time asking for help, too. For a ton of reasons. (some of which I actually know. LOL) That's a thing. What she seemed, to ME, to be asking, in that exercise, was for you to say "yes" whether you wanted to or not. And it's not consent if "no" is not an option, right? This might be a really subtle difference, and maybe it's not what's going on here at all. It just seems like what she did, whether she meant to or not, took your ability to make a free choice away, and that's a whole other topic.

 

[Tinyflame]

@Justmehere I apologize if this has been said, I can't take in all the content as I should. And my response might me a bit all over the map, but takes in to consideration all the years I've heard you write here, and what I've come across for myself lately. I apologize if TL;DR.

You really are tremendously self-aware, and work tremendously hard on your recovery and management. As you said, saying 'no' is well-developed, saying 'yes' not as much so. (For me, no is not easy, but yes as regards myself is worse). But as @scout86 said, I believe saying yes- as much as it's about "just say yes!" (I've been advised)- has to come at Your choice. Sometimes I remember and 'just try', sometimes the stars don't align to have the courage or trust.

And I believe trust is something that comes from a million different instances that tip the scale. Even if it wasn't violated by that person, it's incredibly fragile.

And it's not 'a failure' on your part, when trust has been violated, even though it might be other people who did, or other instances.

Idk what she is doing- maybe trying to build your distress tolerance? :(

I do know this though, by analogy: when I was very small, we had to take swimming lessons in school (I hated the thought, and was terribly afraid of water- still am to be in it, though not 'on' it; I did not let anyone know I was terrified there); only myself and one other girl passed, and succeeded from the start (not to learn how, we started at the beginning, and it ended before you could learn). We had water wings, they ensure you float; her and I were bored and fast and we would race each other (great fun) in what we both approximated (no one showed us) as a front crawl. At the end they put me with this very large, very tall, very grumpy woman (not her forte to teach children, I think), who put me in a metal triangle attached to a chain and a pole in the deep end. She angrily and loudly shouted at me while she walked (in my mind it sounded that way, but it was a large pool and loud, though she was not in a good mood that day, I don't think) of what I was 'supposed' to do; I couldn't make out whatsoever what she wanted- if she would have only told me? I could not hear her words. No one said a word to me. I was so compliant a kid- so I did the 'front crawl', which made her very mad. :( :confused: I always wondered- did she want a 'dog paddle'? (That never seemed useful and I always had small lung capacity.) The point is, 43 years later I still don't have a clue what she wanted. :(

So I think it's incredibly unhelpful, her communication. At least say, trust me, trust 'us', to get through this process.

Like last night, I know I dreamt of something with a jigsaw puzzle, trying but also not being able to solve it. And it occurred to me this morning, it feels like the pieces come from more than one puzzle. I accidentally saw a video on 'you need to know the picture', to do the puzzle (helpful idea). I agree.

Personally (which is all I can witness to or speak from, my own experience or perspective), I had had a horrible and tumultuous week, that was very discouraging. I have felt better with kindness, support. I have felt better just 'not thinking', having it 'leave me' (not really my choice, perhaps a bi-product of other's kindness, not beating myself up as much?) and feeling better or 'less-bad' with the absence.

I did, also however go to bed/ wake up today sad at how, in the so-called 'being true to yourself' stuff you always hear, my own life transpired the opposite: I wanted to work with poor children in a very warm area; now with with old mostly affluent people in a cold climate; I wanted to use my brain, not to accomplish 'marvels' but at least be challenged and be able to provide $ for many (also I had several severe injuries by 18 already), including loved ones; I work in a primarily physical capacity with a very rapidly uncooperative and decaying body, doing everything I can to make ends meet, with little to give nor much in the way of 'loved ones'; though I was fearful of having children I placed the highest emphasis of all on family, including FOO, I would have loved to be married to one and one person only for decades, if they/ I didn't die; FOO died all early or we are estranged, tense or less than perfunctory communication at best at most times, I am single and almost the age I more than ever expected to even still be alive for. As a child and young my greatest love was travel; I would have wanted to see much of the world; now, it's an effort to leave the house, engage, stay alive. Get groceries. Eat.

But I did see this accidentally this morning, and I think it speaks not only to depression or trauma, but differences and the chasm that can feel like it exists leading a double-life, one often very common with ptsd as well. And Extremely common, I would think, when living post a life of neglect, as you mentioned @Justmehere :

Must See Videos with a Message - ADD freeSources
(Click on Kevin Breel: Confessions of a Depressed Comic, 11 minutes)
(ETA And yes, his emotion and saying 'we are people' does bother me at the end- not because of the emotion- I welcome it in others; not because I don't view him as a person either, of course. But rather the insistence on 'we are people'- something I don't feel so strongly about myself, nor would with my history, nor do with neglect, and as such evokes a lot of shame and discomfort in me, even the sort of cringe-worthy Stuart Smalley/ SNL skits, I'm very ashamed to admit :( . A defense mechanism as regards if thinking of regarding it in terms of myself (only) )

I also had tears pop-up 4 or 5 times (as did panic also, and great depression; and hope?, and crushed hope, and fear, and exhaustion, and exhaustion of being unable to manage further my 'double life' of barely hanging on), but twice the tears were not painful and I have no idea what thought caused them. I did learn yesterday though, emotions are not feelings: the emotion is quick, instant, quick judgement call as to (un)safety often. Sometimes we don't even know why we're feeling what we are (that emotion, -so they said). The feelings (conversely) are the thoughts that follow. And that if we've had plenty of negative ones early, we will have developed a negative thinking style. I would add, internalized a lot of thoughts about things/ ourself, IMHO.

And I'm not saying it's depression, if anything with ptsd we can get a full plate of fear, depression, anxiety, hypervigilance, exhaustion, confusion, mistrust; but really we (at least I) can feel I've tried to order self-understanding, hope, progress, victory over this (and as Breel said , over myself ) from the menu. :( :confused:

So here you are, loaded with emotion, and trying very hard, and very self-aware and competent in your understanding, and IMHO brave, but not connecting or communicating (or being communicated 'with') in a way that makes much rational sense to you (and emotions need a rational over-seer to get back on online, though we can also avoid them by intellectualizing too much). That yes, does require both parties' dialogue, but I don't see this as any failure on your part. I see (or 'hear') you rather doing everything in your power to try to work backwards to a solution, self-regulate, self-understand, assume responsibility for your part. And that latter is also very critical. But some of these questions just can't be answered by you. So maybe part (not all) of the next step is patience and giving yourself a break.

I personally want to solve my stuff yesterday. But the only way I can even stand myself or life is to get a break 'now'. And the real truth is, some puzzles may never be clear to me. So it's equally important (for survival, but also quality of life- even if it's a life I could never have envisioned), to, Idk, make a new puzzle of your choosing. Or, better still, paint a picture this moment (metaphorically speaking), of what 'is' you, 'is' where you're at, 'is' who and how you are. And it is 'ok. You are very much 'ok'. :hug:

Hugs to you. :hug:

 

[Justmehere]

I’m still processing these thoughtful responses and the whole situation.

Not sure what to do.

I have therapy today and she texted to confirm our session was still on. Which she has never done before and I’m thinking, “what’s wrong?”

I’m driving myself up the wall.

I’m looking for any sign of unpredictability in her. I’m actually slightly shivering with anxiety and panic. Because it’s simply mildly different. Like come on jmh, humans are allowed to change and still be safe and ok.

Damn it. I really am spooked. My reaction doesn’t fit the situation at hand.

I hope she shows up and stays steady. I’m telling myself, “I’m safe.” Because I am. This all feels wonky with her, but I’m actually quite safe.

Before we did the exercise, she gave me other options of what we could do. She reminded me I could say no at any time. I could have stopped and asked to do something else. Frankly, I kind of felt almost powerful when she wouldn’t even move up 4 inches closer in her chair, wouldn’t even scoot to the edge of her seat, when I said no. She wouldn’t even move that much unless I said it was ok.

Even thinking about it now, that part of it all doesn’t bother me.

But when I think of being anxious and her telling me a one word “regulate” and everything that’s happened since... that still bugs me. I’m trying to identify the feeling and thoughts more clearly. I feel jarred. Rattled. Fearful.

Right now, I’m hoping she doesn’t quit. I guess I really expect that to happen. My brain wants to map out what to say if she quits. Frankly, I think I’d ask to have a termination session later and I’d just walk out, even if that wasn’t possible. I’m too shaken today to handle a conversation about her quitting very well.

I probably shouldn’t plan for that to happen though.

Thinking about how “yes” doesn’t mean “yes” unless someone can say “no”.... this actually makes sense with past treatment experiences where I was pushed pretty strongly to lean into connection, where “no” was given lip service, but not really ever a choice that was respected, and my having boundaries was treated as a deal-breaker for continued safe connection. A sign of pathological distrust. I did not think they were very big boundaries or that I held them very often... so I don’t understand why they were so difficult for therapists.

That’s what gets me. I want connection and I want that connection to include sometimes saying yes and sometimes saying no. Both ways. I think my therapist wants that too.

In therapy, right now, it doesn’t feel like it is that way. Feelings are not facts though...

She’s been awfully darn safe and boundaried and actively encouraged my having boundaries for a long while though. PTSD panic will not rule my choices. (So I keep telling myself.)

I hope we can get on track again and talk this through and find a way forward. I wonder if it’s possible for me to lean into trusting a therapist, not understanding everything, still being able to say no sometimes, and still have connection to work through trauma. Not saying no to connection but to some things in that connection. That’s how it works with other relationships for me... They have boundaries, I have boundaries, and the relationship happens in between.

Either way, I told her yes, I’d be there for my appointment. I also emailed her a few days ago to mention a few tools I’d have in my bag (like a frozen water bottle) and “if I needed to chill, suggest I use that...” and this would be more helpful than “regulate.” I plan to do what I need to do to stay regulated anyhow.

 

[Tinyflame]

Good luck @Justmehere .

 

[barefoot]

Hope your session goes well today!

 

[scout86]

Which she has never done before and I’m thinking, “what’s wrong?”

Maybe nothing. Might have been her way of reassuring you she was there & you're on the same page.

Going things go well today!

 

[ButterflyBean]

Initial thoughts: What does being regulated mean to you? What does being/staying regulated look and feel like to you? I’ve learned that language/word choice can be important regarding communication in therapy for some people. If the answer to the above questions involves feelings, I wonder if words like “manage” or “handle” would sit better with you? However, references to topics or situations that involve behaviors might be better received and tolerated with the use of words like “monitor” or “evaluate”. Also, wondering if things said in the form of a question, so the element of choice is there, would be helpful: “I am noticing XYZ. Would it be helpful if we focused on management of symptoms/emotions right now?” Instead of hearing a one-word directive: regulate. To me, that sounds a bit defensive in itself.

Speaking of defenses, you asked if there was a way to talk about the therapeutic relationship without your therapist’s defenses going up in your other thread. In my opinion, your T should not be becoming defensive in front of you at all. She doesn’t need to defend herself but rather manage her way of being in your presence. That’s not to say that she can’t or won’t ever disagree with you, but she should be helping you look at things from different angles in an effort to guide you toward change that you want. Our Ts are supportive guides toward change that we cannot achieve by ourselves, but we are the experts on our healing. I don’t know, just some out-of-the-box brainstorming. I hope today’s session was better!

 

[ButterflyBean]

@Justmehere - I’ve been thinking about you all day, so I wanted to check in and see how your session went? Or even just send your support. You probably have a lot to process from the session, and what you were processing beforehand, so I also wanted to extend an invitation to keep writing. Sometimes the responses don’t matter as much as writing out your thoughts and having someone read them. You don’t have to respond to us individually of course, as we understand that doing so might be too much at the moment. However, I just felt the need to personally validate whatever feelings you’re having right now, let you know that I care, and say that we are all here to listen if you need us!

 

[Justmehere]

Thanks all.

The session went well. Processing things here helped a lot!

I’m a bit triggered about the session and fighting some fight or flight symptoms about everything we talked about, and I can’t really post about it yet. Not enough words yet.

We typically (and delightfully) don’t do small talk. I sat down and she asked right away if we could go into the traumatic event. I said sure. It was a heavy session.

As we talked about the trauma, we also talked about the therapeutic relationship and started to sort out my confusion and I think a lot of her confusion too.

My anxiety is through the roof, but it’s because I stopped avoiding some really hard things and they are out on the table.

Overall though, it just feels like we are on track. I actually feel safer with her. I didn’t expect that, but I sure am glad that was one of the outcomes. :)

Will post more later. :)

 

[Justmehere]

Quick update and a note of thanks to close out this topic:

I saw my therapist again this week, and we talked even more deeply about the trauma and how to sort it out in terms of my life now and recovery... I can't post many of the details of the sessions because they were too deeply personal to share here. (Wait, there's something justmehere won't share here? Yes. Believe it or not, there is. lol.)

Anyhow... I feel safer with her. She said she understands me a lot better now too. A few mysteries about me are apparently a lot more clear to her about the way I respond to a handful of things. She's got a map to keep working on this for a bit. Trust is easier. It's been so hard to deal with this, but so good. We didn't really sort out what regulate meant in the moment, but we sorted out why it upset me so much, and that's been the real issue - not the word, but the trauma. She's been really validating about the trauma, and now, it doesn't matter as much about the word. I really needed the old stuff figured out in the context of our relationship. I still don't want to do therapy, but it feels safer.

I'm trying to make a lot of changes in life, to really step into living a much fuller life, and its coming along. It's been slower than I hoped, but still good steady progress forward in my life. This process with my therapist and trying to face this has really rattled up some symptoms. This forum has helped in so many ways to keep taking solid steps forward with her and forward in my life. Setbacks happen, this process was a bit of a setback, but I think we are getting through it.

Thank you so much for processing this through with me and helping me hang on through this.