Relationship How to deal with denial?

[Hojay]

I'm late to the party. Let me sing you a song about denial. (Minus the denial that something happened to him, mine did acknowledge that quite, uhm, conveniently.)

He was in therapy for the first two years were together. Things were "ok" then. By "ok" I mean that he acknowledged he had a problem (with psychotic rages, panic attacks, etc.) and that he was working on it.

Then he quit therapy, refused to go back, and that's when the denial started taking a huge turn for the worse. He was "fine," didn't need any help, didn't want to think about his past anymore etc. The most damaging part was that he stopped acknowledging that his behavior was caused by his trauma. Rather, now, it was caused by me. I didn't notice it at first, the change was subtle, but we ever so slowly moved away from talking about his PTSD to the many ways I was to blame for our problems.

At this stage, whenever I gently tried to speak to him about his behavior, he lashed out and turned it around on me. Whenever I refused to go along with his denial, he ripped me to shreds for it. When I called him out on being unacceptably angry at me (or any thing really) he was 1. in denial that he was even angry (I'm panicked!! How can't you see that!! Uhmm) and 2. incredibly insulted that I called him out in the first place (because how dare I question how he feels, yadda, yadda.) Denial denial denial. (No, actually, it was gaslighting, come to think of it.)

He was also often incredibly vague about "what was going on." So much so that I had no idea what was what, and what could be causing what. Your mind starts filling in the blanks, and if it's never matched with any firm truth, it just floats, growing increasingly disoriented. His anger at my trying to get to the bottom of things was a nice way of shutting me up. To this day, I still don't know what he may or may not have been trying to hide.

This got worse over time.

There was a lot of denial on both sides. Having stayed in that shitshow of a relationship, I have to acknowledge that I completely gave up my own sense of truth and reality. I took whatever he fed me as truth. That was wrong and dangerous to my mental health. I SAW what was happening, but was in denial about the severity, pathology, and abusiveness of it. I let the mental patient run the asylum. I'm still kicking myself for that.

And one of the biggest lessons I've learned is: It was manipulation. He acknowledged his trauma and "state of mind" when it was convenient for him to do so (for pity, as a way to turn the discussion around, and to shut me up.) He denied and minimized it when it suited him (mostly, to shut me up.) The bits he had told me about his past were used as one giant excuse to act and react however he pleased. Not consciously, no. He isn't a psychopath. But I did have to leave PTSD out for a second and see how this dynamic actually served him: I stopped asking questions and he could act and react however he pleased.

I have since moved on from putting THAT kind of stuff on PTSD. This forum is filled with people able and ready to take full responsibility for their mental health and the way they act and react towards those they love. He was not that. I thought he was, because he was that way in the beginning, but he wasn't that. So essentially, he's a guy with a with a questionable relationship to the truth and a complete inability to take responsibility for himself or be accountable for his actions...who just so happens to have PTSD. That was my experience with this kind of "denial."

 

[mumstheword]

It sounds like untreated Borderline, to me.
It's very crazy making.
Sorry you are dealing with this.
He won't be able to start getting better unless he can face himself, take responsibility and be accountable for himself.
He will (most likely, I think, as all the bpd's in my life do this) punish you for your honesty and care and for attempting to help him take responsibility, until he reaches bottom and decides to be real .

He will (might) pull-push, hovering you in and playing the poor me mind game, not wanting to be "abandoned", but unable to handle intimacy, thus constantly pushing you away when.you get "too" close.

Unless he gets some dialectic behaviour therapy or some other miracle, he will project, deflect and gaslight you until you put up watertight boundaries and stop expecting him to act sane, honestly and rationally. Sorry it's not a better prognosis and what do I know anyway, right?

I've had 45 years dealing with bpd's in denial, but, I'm no clinical psychologist so don't take my word for it, this is just what it sounds like to me, based on my (lived and read and watched) research, multiple and ongoing dealings with cluster b types and a smigeon of intuition, but you have to go with your guts and do what feels right for you and disregard all of this, if it's feels off or doesn't add up or ring true. I don't know anything really, its purely speculative.

I think, you just can't expect too much, is all. He sounds very unwell and deeeeep in denial of how unwell he is. It sounds very hurtful, exhausting, and destabilizing. He probably needs to hit his own personal rock bottom, before he will want to change and certainly, he might never, especially if he he has you to blame and scapegoat and project onto.

Love is looking after yourself first and being as honest and kind as you can possibly be, that's what I think, anyway.

 

[Hojay]

Funny you mention BPD @mumstheword, as I’m about as sure as I can be that mine has that rather than—or comorbidly with—PTSD (though those two can look very much alike, I’ve been told.) Looking into BPD and how it affects loved ones (I can recommend AJ Mahari on YouTube) helped me understand a lot more about my case than focusing on PTSD—exactly because of some of the behavior the OP has mentioned. Just wanted to say, I agree with you.

 

[WinterCricket]

I'm late to the party. Let me sing you a song about denial. (Minus the denial that something happened to him, mine did acknowledge that quite, uhm, conveniently.)
i"

Hojay, this could be my ex fiancé of a few years ago, and I'd argue, both yours and mine are narcissists (I no longer shed tears for narcs with ptsd by the way!) and that to me is as close to sociopathic as I ever want to be again. Human vampires to be sure! I'm glad you escaped and you sound strong, it took me 10 months to recover from mine, better equipped and stinking of garlic ;)

 

[Hojay]

@WinterCricket Ha! You’d think I’d be all decked out in crosses and garlic by now. I seem to have a way of attracting narcs, so before my ex, I thought I was pretty good at spotting them. It seems the PTSD diagnosis seriously clouded my vision.

So at the end of the day, I can’t be sure if it’s vulnerable narcissism, BPD, or CPTSD, though perhaps it’s comorbidly all three. They seem to differ in their underlying belief structure, and since I can’t look into his head (thank god, can you imagine?!) I can’t be sure if his triggered states were some form of narcissistic injury, abandonment fear and paranoia, or classic flashbacks. All I know is that the hallmarks fit: gaslighting, psychotic anger, lying, crazy making conversations etc. I just kept thinking all that was an expression of him being triggered and/or trying to protect himself from being triggered (specifically the gaslighting and lying,) and he did show some insight and willingness to work on himself (in the first two years,) so I didn’t associate it with narcissism. Could be it was all a giant manipulation to protect his sad, vulnerable narcissistic construct, but I’m missing some insights to fully know that’s the case.

I’m glad I sound strong, and on many days I am. But the cognitive dissonance is real, and I’d be lying if I said I sometimes don’t wake up feeling like I’ve gone insane and am making all of the above up or worse than it was...

Not sure if you have an answer for this, but from your experience, how did you come to understand you were dealing with a narcissist rather than ptsd?

 

[EveHarrington]

Just a quick heads up- Sophy has PTSD herself due to a highly traumatic childhood. But he reacts in a different way then she does and that is what she is trying to understand.

Well this makes the whole “looney” thing about 100x worse.

It’s bad enough when outsiders call us derogatory terms, but when we turn on one another, there isn’t much hope for the stigma going away.

Maybe it’s a defense mechanism?

“My kind of PTSD/trauma reaction is normal, but because yours is different than mine, you aren’t normal. You are the looney one.”

 

[Sweetpea76]

Don’t get hung up on language here... OP wasn’t saying her partner was looney because he has PTSD. She was trying to figure out why he did a complete nonsensical 180.

This ain’t the place to make a stand on semantics. Take that elsewhere.

 

[WinterCricket]

@WinterCricket
Not sure if you have an answer for this, but from your experience, how did you come to understand you were dealing with a narcissist rather than ptsd?

YOU are not going crazy, darling Hojay!

The fact that you consider you might be is probably the result of the gaslighting and constant hammering away of your sanity, which is more than likely, in my experience, the darkness of narc-ness (feel free to use that!). I def had a tangle with ptsd after my mad caper and you likely have a bit of trauma over it too. Obsessing, ruminating is something I did as well; our brains so want a neat, sensical box to put the crazy in to make it fit our normal human morals, and eureka, you have cognitive dissonance!

Though BPDs I think try on gaslighting and dip a toe in narc tactics, and PTSD sufferers can also lash out at times and isolate, they both seem easier to spot to me. I think one reason is because they tend to get more emotional in the sense that they will show pain in a way we can identify with and thus give themselves away; and though they can be all over the map sometimes, narcs are more steady and calculating, and I saw primarily the anger emotion with mine.

Narcs as you've seen can sell even themselves their own lies, cool and collected as my ex did, which to me equals sociopath and which gives them that fun little of skill of making you feel bat-shit without blinking an eye - there's that large part of them that feeds on the power, lacks empathy, and, it's no mistake, it's cunning and deliberate.... Maybe it began in the same garden as BPD and or PTSD, which are often prickly for sure, but it's because THEY FEEL TOO MUCH AND NARCS DON'T FEEL ENOUGH. Narcs have grown into a whole other variety of soul-sucking, vampiristic, venus flytrap.

Mine manipulated and lied to everyone, not just me but his own adult children, coworkers, people in the potting soil aisle at Home Depot... He loved being fawned over (altruistic narcissist), and let me tell you, his high school reunion was enough to make me gag, blah blah him him him, faded glory, blechhhhhhh.

When I convinced him to go to couples counseling, he bold-faced lied in the sessions, it was like sitting next to Tony Montana from Scarface...Fortunately, in the second, afterward, the doc pulled me aside quietly and told me outright,"You have a narcissist here, run for your life." I quote....Thank god she colored outside the lines a little and gave it to me straight!

So yeah, I think a key difference between narcs and BPD, PTSD and similar challenges is, while the latter two can stretch the fibers of a supporter's understanding and energy, you can feel something different in your gut with them. You can feel their pain despite how they act out, like wounded creatures - These folks don't give you a cold chill, you can sense the pain below the surface they're struggling to process vs. cat and mouse shell games... There's something called the sociopathic stare if you've heard of that and narcs have it while BPD and PTSD don't. The latter might look angry or anxious or afraid or hurt but narcs can present like a pre-pounce panther -icy....

The dust will settle and you will come back to equilibrium even more strong than before, promise! Every vampire "slain" is one step closer to our own humanity. Not your circus not your monkey, you're too smart for it!

Disclaimer: I bring you this public service announcement having survived said wacko narc and now being supporter (for as long as I can!) to a sensitive, deeply wounded and compartmentalized combat PTSD Marine vet. I'll do what I can as long as I can.....

So, sister, I feel ya, it's hard being an empath because, yep, the narcs can spot us!...We have to be wise stewards of our time on this earth and help where we can/should, not becoming enmeshed, and taking care to know the difference between "wolves and wounded sheepdogs" ;)

 

[mumstheword]

I

YOU are not going crazy, darling Hojay!

The fact that you consider you might be is probably the result of the gaslighting and constant hammering away of your sanity, which is more than likely, in my experience, the darkness of narc-ness (feel free to use that!). I def had a tangle with ptsd after my mad caper and you likely have a bit of trauma over it too. Obsessing, ruminating is something I did as well; our brains so want a neat, sensical box to put the crazy in to make it fit our normal human morals, and eureka, you have cognitive dissonance!

Though BPDs I think try on gaslighting and dip a toe in narc tactics, and PTSD sufferers can also lash out at times and isolate, they both seem easier to spot to me. I think one reason is because they tend to get more emotional in the sense that they will show pain in a way we can identify with and thus give themselves away; and though they can be all over the map sometimes, narcs are more steady and calculating, and I saw primarily the anger emotion with mine.

Narcs as you've seen can sell even themselves their own lies, cool and collected as my ex did, which to me equals sociopath and which gives them that fun little of skill of making you feel bat-shit without blinking an eye - there's that large part of them that feeds on the power, lacks empathy, and, it's no mistake, it's cunning and deliberate.... Maybe it began in the same garden as BPD and or PTSD, which are often prickly for sure, but it's because THEY FEEL TOO MUCH AND NARCS DON'T FEEL ENOUGH. Narcs have grown into a whole other variety of soul-sucking, vampiristic, venus flytrap.

Mine manipulated and lied to everyone, not just me but his own adult children, coworkers, people in the potting soil aisle at Home Depot... He loved being fawned over (altruistic narcissist), and let me tell you, his high school reunion was enough to make me gag, blah blah him him him, faded glory, blechhhhhhh.

When I convinced him to go to couples counseling, he bold-faced lied in the sessions, it was like sitting next to Tony Montana from Scarface...Fortunately, in the second, afterward, the doc pulled me aside quietly and told me outright,"You have a narcissist here, run for your life." I quote....Thank god she colored outside the lines a little and gave it to me straight!

So yeah, I think a key difference between narcs and BPD, PTSD and similar challenges is, while the latter two can stretch the fibers of a supporter's understanding and energy, you can feel something different in your gut with them. You can feel their pain despite how they act out, like wounded creatures - These folks don't give you a cold chill, you can sense the pain below the surface they're struggling to process vs. cat and mouse shell games... There's something called the sociopathic stare if you've heard of that and narcs have it while BPD and PTSD don't. The latter might look angry or anxious or afraid or hurt but narcs can present like a pre-pounce panther -icy....

The dust will settle and you will come back to equilibrium even more strong than before, promise! Every vampire "slain" is one step closer to our own humanity. Not your circus not your monkey, you're too smart for it!

Disclaimer: I bring you this public service announcement having survived said wacko narc and now being supporter (for as long as I can!) to a sensitive, deeply wounded and compartmentalized combat PTSD Marine vet. I'll do what I can as long as I can.....

So, sister, I feel ya, it's hard being an empath because, yep, the narcs can spot us!...We have to be wise stewards of our time on this earth and help where we can/should, not becoming enmeshed, and taking care to know the difference between "wolves and wounded sheepdogs" ;)

I know, what you are describing, only too well @WinterCricket.

 

[WinterCricket]

I
I know, what you are describing, only too well @WinterCricket.

Hate to hear it Mum, but that's why we're here; to give each other those aha moments, or huge big bada boom WTF! moments right?!

Hope you're feeling fortified too after whatever you've encountered :)

 

[joeylittle]

It’s bad enough when outsiders call us derogatory terms, but when we turn on one another, there isn’t much hope for the stigma going away.

@EveHarrington - I'm going to be much more blunt than @Sweetpea76 was.

Things to remember:
(1) Global forum = colloquialisms differ.
(2) Supporters area = sufferer triggers or soapboxes have little to no place here.
(3) Ask, don't assume.

Now, back to thread.

 

[Hojay]

YOU are not going crazy, darling Hojay!

The fact that you consider you might be is probably the result of the gaslighting and constant hammering away of your sanity, which is more than likely, in my experience, the darkness of narc-ness (feel free to use that!). I def had a tangle with ptsd after my mad caper and you likely have a bit of trauma over it too. Obsessing, ruminating is something I did as well; our brains so want a neat, sensical box to put the crazy in to make it fit our normal human morals, and eureka, you have cognitive dissonance!

Though BPDs I think try on gaslighting and dip a toe in narc tactics, and PTSD sufferers can also lash out at times and isolate, they both seem easier to spot to me. I think one reason is because they tend to get more emotional in the sense that they will show pain in a way we can identify with and thus give themselves away; and though they can be all over the map sometimes, narcs are more steady and calculating, and I saw primarily the anger emotion with mine.

Narcs as you've seen can sell even themselves their own lies, cool and collected as my ex did, which to me equals sociopath and which gives them that fun little of skill of making you feel bat-shit without blinking an eye - there's that large part of them that feeds on the power, lacks empathy, and, it's no mistake, it's cunning and deliberate.... Maybe it began in the same garden as BPD and or PTSD, which are often prickly for sure, but it's because THEY FEEL TOO MUCH AND NARCS DON'T FEEL ENOUGH. Narcs have grown into a whole other variety of soul-sucking, vampiristic, venus flytrap.

Mine manipulated and lied to everyone, not just me but his own adult children, coworkers, people in the potting soil aisle at Home Depot... He loved being fawned over (altruistic narcissist), and let me tell you, his high school reunion was enough to make me gag, blah blah him him him, faded glory, blechhhhhhh.

When I convinced him to go to couples counseling, he bold-faced lied in the sessions, it was like sitting next to Tony Montana from Scarface...Fortunately, in the second, afterward, the doc pulled me aside quietly and told me outright,"You have a narcissist here, run for your life." I quote....Thank god she colored outside the lines a little and gave it to me straight!

So yeah, I think a key difference between narcs and BPD, PTSD and similar challenges is, while the latter two can stretch the fibers of a supporter's understanding and energy, you can feel something different in your gut with them. You can feel their pain despite how they act out, like wounded creatures - These folks don't give you a cold chill, you can sense the pain below the surface they're struggling to process vs. cat and mouse shell games... There's something called the sociopathic stare if you've heard of that and narcs have it while BPD and PTSD don't. The latter might look angry or anxious or afraid or hurt but narcs can present like a pre-pounce panther -icy....

The dust will settle and you will come back to equilibrium even more strong than before, promise! Every vampire "slain" is one step closer to our own humanity. Not your circus not your monkey, you're too smart for it!

Disclaimer: I bring you this public service announcement having survived said wacko narc and now being supporter (for as long as I can!) to a sensitive, deeply wounded and compartmentalized combat PTSD Marine vet. I'll do what I can as long as I can.....

So, sister, I feel ya, it's hard being an empath because, yep, the narcs can spot us!...We have to be wise stewards of our time on this earth and help where we can/should, not becoming enmeshed, and taking care to know the difference between "wolves and wounded sheepdogs" ;)

Thank you for this thorough narc-splanation (feel free to use that one, too...)! Years ago, I dated a tried and true narc, and your description fits to a T. I spot those types from 10 miles away and against strong headwinds by now. My ex didn't ping that radar...

Because...enter stage left...the vulnerable narcissist. And that's where the mindf*ckery turns pro. Vulnerable narcissists--as opposed to grandiose narcs--tend to exhibit and feel loads of emotions. In fact, they're prone to depression and anxiety, can become quite clingy, moody, sad, even histrionic at times. There is none of the overt lying, (obvious) cold-heartedness, psychopathic staring, flashy entitlement, etc. as you'd see in someone of the grandiose type.

The key difference here, it seems, is that the environment mostly confirms the grandiose narc's inflated sense of self-importance, uniqueness, and entitlement, leading them to walk through the world as if their piss doesn't stink. Not so with the vulnerable narc. Their distorted self-image is most often questioned by society (maybe they're not as talented, pretty, smart, or successful as they believe they should be,) leading them to bouts of deep depression, triggered states, isolation, anger, anxiety, and so on.

The issue (amongst a billion others, of course,) is that they tend to have to work a lot harder to "get their supply," so they often appear quite sincere, empathetic, and agreeable. Their mask virtually never slips completely--they're too afraid of being found out--so they've perfected the whole manipulation dance, along with their sad pity party, poor me, "listen to my sad story as an excuse for my bad behavior and anger issues" tactics to elicit empathy and keep their victims hooked.

...and you can see where this is going. Because symptomatically, it can closely mirror BPD and, quelle surprise, PTSD (though to a much lesser degree, as there should be none of the gaslighting and crazy-making going on here.) When someone's depressed, isolating, angry, anxious, or hysterically crying in front of you, hitting themselves in the head, then screaming at you for something you didn't even say, then tell you it's a flashback...well, it's virtually impossible to say whether this person is seriously experiencing flashbacks, just got triggered because they thought you're leaving them or got too close or reminded them that they have no sense of self (BPD,) or you injured their fragile narcissistic framework somehow (narc narc narc.)

When they're isolating and "need space," it's impossible to tell if they're trying to calm their nervous system (PTSD,) are off in a self-righteous rage of push-pull (BPD,) or distance themselves to punish and manipulate your emotions while devaluing you in the process (narc narc narc.)

And to make this shitshow of a Cluster B party even more insane, all three can be present in one fun-filled package.

At the end of the day, I can't 100% be sure I was dealing with a narc. It's a bit like wearing different colored sunglasses. Depending on the shade, the whole thing can look either regrettable and heartbreaking (PTSD,) untenable and crazy-making (BPD,) or full-frontal psycho (narc.) All I know is that this wasn't "just" PTSD. And I wish I'd known that sooner.

I guess I'm going into this level of detail because I think it's important for all supporters to be clear on who and what they're dealing with and to be VERY mindful of what PTSD is and what it isn't; that just because it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it doesn't mean it's not actually feathered cyborg duck from planet narcopath. The main difference being: empathy is wildly misplaced when dealing with a narc or untreated BPD. Empathy is required when dealing with PTSD.