Sexual Assault Csa and gender— let’s talk about it

[Rose White]

The hysterectomy thread got me thinking about csa and gender. And I realized there isn’t a thread for it.

I don’t even know how to start this conversation. Something like, if you experienced csa and you also experience gender differently than your assigned sex at birth, would you like to share your story or join in a discussion about it?

I’ll go.

My dad did csa to me when I was a baby and toddler. My first sexual attraction was to women who were way older than me and one of them csa’d me when I was a teen. I came out as a lesbian at age 18 and dated a girl my age. Then she broke my heart and I thought men would be easier. I had a series of boyfriends including a man almost the age of my dad. Got married mid-20s to an older man who was extremely jealous and wanted me to look like a boy so that I was less attractive to men. My csa was repressed and I wasn’t conscious of it until around age 40. While married, my parents lived with us. I began to fantasize that I was a man more and more until I couldn’t orgasm without the fantasy of being a boy/man. And then it became sort of entrenched. I dressed masc all the time and my husband loved it. After I became conscious of the csa I no longer wanted to be a man because I realized that I had a female body and since recovery was all about self-acceptance I figured I should accept my female body too. I barely dated (men and women but always very short term) until 6 years after the divorce. I thought I had accepted my female body, even though I still fantasized about having a penis in order to orgasm by myself. I finally started dating someone where it lasted a while—about 9 months—and it turned out that he was attracted to trans women (in addition to cis women) and then my longing for a penis went through the roof and every time we had sex I felt like a failure because I don’t have a penis. It’s awful. The feeling. Because it feels so visceral and shameful to not have one. It feels bizarre to say in the light of day but inside my head it seems like such an important thing. And getting surgery wouldn’t solve it because I want the real thing—to be a boy fetus and develop through puberty and everything connected, the brain and glands and muscles etc. But I don’t care about dressing masc anymore. I dress pretty gender neutral most of the time: jeans and t-shirt or long grey/black skirt and t-shirt, no makeup.

I’m working on it in psychoanalysis. It’s like I want to *be* my dad and do it right. “Have a penis the right way.” *sigh* It’s so hard to get through this stuff.

 

[Riley Jones]

Rose, I'm really glad you opened this conversation and that you trusted us with something so deeply personal and complex. That took real courage.

What you're describing makes so much sense when you piece it together—how trauma, survival, identity, and desire can all get tangled up in ways that feel confusing and even contradictory. The fact that you can see the threads now—how the fantasy of being male connected to safety, control, and maybe even a way to reclaim power—that's huge insight. And it sounds like you're doing the real, hard work of untangling it all in therapy.

I hear how painful this is right now, especially in the context of this relationship where those feelings got stirred up again. That visceral shame you're describing, the feeling that something is *wrong* or *missing*—that makes total sense given everything. But I also hear that you're not sure anymore if this is actually about gender identity or if it's something else entirely, something rooted in the trauma and what happened to you. And sitting with that uncertainty while you work through it takes strength.

The fact that you can observe yourself—notice that you don't care about dressing masc anymore, that the longing for a penis feels separate from how you actually want to move through the world—that's you doing the work. That's you getting to know yourself more honestly.

This is exactly the kind of thing that psychoanalysis is beautiful for, because it can help you untangle the deepest threads without rushing to answers. You don't have to have it all figured out right now.

I hope others will join in here. This conversation matters, and you deserve to know you're not alone in navigating the intersection of all this.

How are you doing with it all right now?

 

[Rose White]

Thinking about th fantasy of “the complete gender.” It’s like, I have this body I was born into and society and my family call me this. But if I were in control, I would have this instead and then I would be put together properly. I would be “complete”.

 

[Dark.Green.Feathers]

I think CSA messed up my view of myself and gender majorly much. and I really got roped into this fantasy

Thinking about th fantasy of “the complete gender.”

of becoming the right thing and then everything being manageable, and being able to leave the fear and discomfort behind by escaping my sex and others perceiving it.
it took me a very, very long time to admit to myself that it was a trauma driven thing, because then that went in direct opposition to my preferred idea that I was just "supposed" to be something else and "fixing" that problem would make things feel better... and then I wouldn't have to touch on trauma at all and be able to skip that bit of confronting Why I don't feel at home as myself.

the idea that nothing was actually wrong with my body was completely unbearable because at the time, thinking of living with it felt like the worst thing imaginable, even if I were to hypothetically become happy with it. CSA makes you the entire problem, I just wanted to throw my body out and get born with a new one, because it felt like there was something objectively and unforgivably and irreparably wrong with it/me. and I never thought that it would fix everything.. but at the same time I definitely did. not in a "make my life perfect" way but a "make my life manageable like a normal person's" which, with how terrible I was doing back then was essentially fixing everything, without having to open up about anything. and Id insist to myself I didn't hate myself I just wasn't in the right body.... loads of mental gymnastics to avoid the idea of actually addressing the problem, and the idea that my idealised fix was just a bandaid thing. even though the bar kept rising and the amount of things wrong kept growing exponentially the more things I worked to "fix". but it felt great to feel like I was escaping and becoming the complete, better me, so it was hard to tell/difficult to admit that it was actually getting worse.

but yeah, the want to be something else whether it's the opposite sex or without a sex or a creature irrelevant from sex has followed me my entire life and I still feel weird / uncomfortable using words like "man and woman" instead of "boy and girl" because in my CSA mind gendered adults are inherently sexual/abusive. and along a similar line Im still adjusting to the fact that having your sex acknowledged =/= sexual intent / ideation / etc. my old belief was that if someone knows what you are, it automatically makes you a sexual interest/target/whatever so was inherently violating, because to me everyone thought about doing stuff to me all the time, and if they just didn't know then they couldn't and I'd be safe. and I think having a very oversimplified view of sex made that worse, that it's just about genitals; which by extension I had this subconscious idea that if I got rid of mine I'd also be free of everything and that would be it. nightmare over. And I did try a few times.
I think that got shattered, or significantly chipped once I had mixed gender younger siblings... I had this idea that your sex is only really a thing once you hit puberty and stat growing up and stuff and until then you're basically without gender, but it made a big (and painful) impression on me when I saw and realised that they were physically different, even though they were little. painful because it meant that I couldn't just get rid of a couple of traits and finally be free but it was eventually helpful because it stuck in the back of my head and when I could conceptualise it, I understood that also it wasn't actually all about... stuff in your pants. So it irritates me now when people boil it all down to that because that's not it, and it makes it all creepier and scarier than it needs to be.
Ive always thought that any kind of conscious attention to/knowledge that I had genitals was the gateway to 100% being a target to people and if they knew they'd wanna do it to me, so the idea that people knowing this basic fact about me was perverted and potentially sexually motivated didn't really help my scared CSA riddled brain.

I’m working on it in psychoanalysis. It’s like I want to *be* my dad and do it right. “Have a penis the right way.” *sigh* It’s so hard to get through this stuff.

That sounds really difficult, I dont know if it'd be approproate to compare or anything but this made me think of my perspective on my dad. A lot of me finds him unbearably shameful. it sometimes translates to them being animals, without penis. or in one case positive father figure, who in my headword sees himself as married, but I guess the opposite of my dad, in that he's loving and does what you should do (even though it eventually ends badly). Sometimes he thinks about having (consensual) sex with her, which is unique to him, and it reminds me of the 'doing it right' thing you mentioned. And the rest of me finds that hard because to them there's no such thing as "the right way"... and each gender has its own specific version of the "wrong way" which is all the abuse stuff. So now Im trying to slowly wean myself off the idea that gender/sex boils down to "what style of abusive someone is", because if that's true where do I fit in then?
Being truly alienated from everyone VS healing enough to change my perspective.

 

[Rose White]

Thanks @Dark.Green.Feathers I appreciate your detailed response. These are the things that stood out to me but I will also take time for other stuff to come up.

CSA makes you the entire problem, I just wanted to throw my body out and get born with a new one, because it felt like there was something objectively and unforgivably and irreparably wrong with it/me.

I like this description. I bolded the part that especially resonates. The fantasy of being born into a new body. For me it’s not enough to get surgery, it has to be “real”. I also am still struggling with how much of this is the pressure of capitalism saying “you are the entire problem”—I guess csa and capitalism are a collision of storms. I did hear a talk today that says that sexual violence is “sold” as the cause of all our traumas to deflect from the economic violence inflicted upon us, but I digress.

not in a "make my life perfect" way but a "make my life manageable like a normal person's"

I think about this a lot, and then sometimes people on here say “there is no normal”, but that seems unfair. There is such a thing as statistics and there is such a thing as norm-referenced. I want to be able to have a boring relationship that isn’t about me panicking about something.

if someone knows what you are, it automatically makes you a sexual interest/target/whatever

I had something similar but it was “if someone pays attention to me then I should be willing to give them sex”. So I worked really hard to avoid attention so we wouldn’t be put in that situation where they deserved it and I had to decide whether they could have it.

slowly wean myself off the idea that gender/sex boils down to "what style of abusive someone is",

I used to think about this a lot too. My old T gave me a book called “Why does he do that” by Lundy Bancroft about abusive men. I still get pulled into this argument sometimes but mostly I recognize this cognitive distortion and can usually disagree in my mind, at least after a time.

I want to contribute more to this discussion but need to let it sit a bit.

 

[Rose White]

“if someone pays attention to me then I should be willing to give them sex”.

I watched a video about the movie “When Harry Met Sally” that said the character Harry held the perspective that he couldn’t be friends with women because he wanted to have sex with them.

I was born in the 70s and was going into puberty when that movie came out. My mom got that movie and Pretty Woman on VHS and watched them weekly when she was ironing so when those movies are on it’s like catholic mass, it all comes back to me, every line and affect.

And so I realize that the narrative that I should be available for whoever looks at me in a certain way was not all trauma based. It was very much a societal message in media of the time growing up. It wasn’t very far back in time that a woman without a husband was destitute. How many services required a husband’s permission? And Hollywood amplified that as romantic.

But how can I tie this to the gender thing, or else I will need to start a thread called “economic violence of capitalism” or “trauma culture in capitalist society”.

I haven’t looked into how capitalism punishes people for having “wrong bodies”, or promises “right bodies” with enough money. And how that gets mixed up with trauma. Or how media pushes the “wrong body” narrative.

Some of it IS trauma. But maybe some of it is ideology. But again I am straying from my thread, sorry!

 

[Dark.Green.Feathers]

The fantasy of being born into a new body. For me it’s not enough to get surgery, it has to be “real”.

yeah, can relate a lot to this. I think when I was younger and learnt that you *can* get surgery to,, ""get rid of / make right"" what I couldn't cope with about my body, I got pretty enamoured by that idea. but always at the core I went back to just wanting to be reborn, start life again as the "right" thing, properly.
I think partly why I let go of the idea of surgery as the uh "next best thing" to being erased and started over different was because I realised I'd be basically performing my entire life onwards; still having to mask and hide and whatever my original body/self, like I was already trying to do because it made me so distraught... it's too much, I realised that it wouldn't go away. and for what? to maybe be looked at and treated differently? I wanted to Be different, like really, without trying. I wanted those other things too but the middle of it is to be born new and escape/be impervious to the shame.

The shame is so big. I never was able to see/understand/accept it until recently, as shame. but it is such an unbearable amount of shame that you get given with CSA, in 101 different possible ways. I learnt some more about stuff surrounding some of my experiences when I was little and I was already intensely feeling shame at 5yrs old. it's hard for me to even understand that someone that age can comprehend shame. but you can and CSA gives you near infinite amounts of it :( that you don't know what to do with.

I think about this a lot, and then sometimes people on here say “there is no normal”, but that seems unfair. There is such a thing as statistics and there is such a thing as norm-referenced. I want to be able to have a boring relationship that isn’t about me panicking about something.

I think there's so many different ways "normal" can be seen/used. like intense PTSD symptoms aren't "normal" for people who aren't traumatised, as in, they don't typically experience those, in that way. but then conversely the same symptoms are "normal" in lesser amounts / different contexts for anyone, or are completely normal full swing for someone who has gone through a traumatic event.
I guess the "there is no normal" is referring to... the fact there's no universal, "right" way to be or feel or whatever, especially following being abused/otherwise traumatised, and the fact that it's not helpful to create an idealised image/goal of not-severely-traumatised people, because they aren't a monolith and have unique individual issues too... so don't set this high bar and give yourself grace because "doing well" is very variable.
which in my mind isn't necessarily talking about the "normal" you/we want, which is to have connections with people without severe trauma symptoms interfering with it. which isn;t to say those are the only things that can affect relationships with others but complex trauma is a very complex thing to deal with which you dont enter life expecting/preparing for as a natural/"normal" part of conflict/friction with others.
the norm-referenced experience is someone's parents will be nice to me and I might be a bit uncomfortable/insecure but otherwise accept and appreciate it... not the reaction I typically have in reality.
The reason why most day to day doctors aren't equipped/prepared/don't think about the possibility of someone disengaging against their best interests is because "normally", if someone has a significant issue they will seek and continue to seek help (if physically/financially able).
so yeah, "normal" is a thing in some contexts and it's probably a bit dismissive to have that as a blanket statement to everything.

I had something similar but it was “if someone pays attention to me then I should be willing to give them sex”. So I worked really hard to avoid attention so we wouldn’t be put in that situation where they deserved it and I had to decide whether they could have it.

have you found that the idea of other people deserving something from you/you in some way applies in other aspects of life as well? for me I feel it strongly with my dad's side of the family. I always felt it strongly with him, "he deserves to see me and have me over"... but also with his extended family, I feel very surrendered when I go to visit even if he's not there. they deserve me/my time/something else?? and I have to be willing to give it. I avoid them now for similar reasoning. I dont want to have to decide because it almost always ends with me being very uncomfortable or doing something I don't want to. guess it's an entitlement thing, of people being entitled to you because thats how it was as a kid. And then I feel bad about myself because I think I should naturally be more assertive and able to stand up for myself and not be so submissive to them and not be struggling like that, but maybe that's a gender thing too.

I haven’t looked into how capitalism punishes people for having “wrong bodies”, or promises “right bodies” with enough money. And how that gets mixed up with trauma. Or how media pushes the “wrong body” narrative.

Some of it IS trauma. But maybe some of it is ideology.

I think its hard, but I resonate with that, I think it's everywhere, the promise of if you do/buy/use the right thing you can have the "right body". people notice it a lot for young girls but I think it's sold to everyone, the promise that it's something you can be sold/given in some way. the "right body" and by extension happiness/peace/approval/belonging. even for old people. there's something for everyone.

the idea that you can actually have a "wrong body" is also distressing to me. bolded it in your quote because I've never overtly thought about how it is a narrative pushed in that way before. I have a little sister and she often says she's ugly, and by extension that's why her friends don't like her... she's already being sold it. and it's hard to know what to say that will actually help. I don't wanna just say she's not, because she'll spend her life worrying and trying to run/keep away from it, instead of understanding it's more of an idea that's not worth stressing out over.

I think trauma can make some ideology very appealing, so they can go hand in hand like that, in a way? I think ideas that there can legitimately be something that needs erasing/changing about you feels secure, and comforting, because it lines up with how you feel and makes it legitimate that there *is* something wrong instead of... someone did something awful to you and/or put this belief in you... what now???. that's so overwhelmingly big ontop of the already overwhelming stuff. I just wanna fix the feeling of wrong, not uncover 100 more layers of wrong.

I'm still so tired of the exhaustion that was trying to cure my body of the way it was born, it's the exact same exhaustion as trying to cure my brain of how it was born it's this constant exhausting effort to make it different or go away or adhere to something "right" somehow. but it's just ideas. trying to cure something that isn't sick because the actual pain and sickness is so hard to look at. because it either doesn't come from you and is imposed on you, or is such an awful thing. or both. the main lesson you learn from being abused in any way but maybe especially sexually, is that something about you is not safe, or is bad, or should be hated or should be escaped or gotten rid of or or or... there's just no other conclusion you can get to as a child that doesn't include intense shame and wrongness.

 

[Rose White]

@Dark.Green.Feathers appreciate your post. Going to let it rattle around then return to it later.

 

[Roland]

For me, I dreaded being female because in my framework growing up, males don't get sexualized. They don't get raped, they can't get pregnant from rape, they are physically stronger/bigger than women typically. So when I was a teenager, I felt a sense of envy for that. But I grew to hate and fear men, and ultimately preferred being a woman. I wanted to sexualize myself, until it feels unsafe, then I want to disappear my body into a masculine form. Wearing men's clothes makes heterosexual men not look at you twice. I prefer short hair because heterosexual men sexualize long beautiful hair. When someone says I look unattractive because of my hair, I kinda revel in that. It's just to protect myself. It's possible wanting to be male and wanting to have a penis just means having more power. I'm also bisexual/lesbian/queer. The realization that dressing masculine can attract queer femme women was eye opening because I prefer to be feminine and I prefer femme women. But most of the time, I'm feminine, it's just my "vibe" can oscillate so drastically that people can hardly recognize me. I can present the energy I want to show up with that day. Sometimes I'm channeling little boy, sometimes little girl, sometimes eclectic art teacher, sometimes man, sometimes hyper sexualized woman, but most times just a regular feminine woman.

 

[Dark.Green.Feathers]

probably not goig to make much sense, having a hard time.

young child = no sex constancy

so if you're being abused and being substituted for something else you become whateveer you're supposed/being used as. or maybe whatever youre trying to understand it as I don't know.
so being a boy and a girl based on what is being done to me;what is being said to me how they're talking to me and what I'm "being" but if it gets too bad then I am nothing and stop existing, like a thing or an animal (sex often unimportant). "being" something else depending on what theyre doing and also having no gender and/or no existence also depending on. cuz as a kid you are/become whoever people say/treat you are. like whatever is true/untrue is entirely based on what others feedback to you if they cant see it it isnt real and whatevr they see is real.
so being very young and not being able to tell if Im a boy or a girl (that day?) because the abuse is so incomprehensibly bad. and its based on treatment and role given. dissociated from body also so even if there is concept of that it didnt matter