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Let’s talk about shame!

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Lots of food for thought here. I’m not sure I see vulnerability as the antidote to shame, I feel shameful about being vulnerable which doesn’t help heal shame. I had a long talk with my T about shame yesterday - trying to figure out how to let go of that feeling that I’m less than, which I know has its roots in childhood.

I do think the concept isn’t really tied together in terms of links to trauma, the all pervasive nature of feeling shameful - because of what happened to me, because I’m still struggling with it, because I “should” know how to get out of it, because it was so long ago etc etc.

And for me it comes down to me still blaming myself. Still. I’m not sure how those people who hurt me get to abdicate responsiblity or why I take the blame but I’ve beeing doing it for so long I’m not sure I know how to let go. And if I’m to blame, then me doing the wrong thing, wearing the wrong thing, saying the wrong thing is shameful because I know where that can lead to and I do it anyway.

But I’m fighting back. I’m trying to stop judging myself so harshly, arguing with the voice that tells me I’m shameful, putting the blame back where it belongs, reminding myself that I don’t have a sign saying “damaged goods” flashing over my head, reminding myself that I do worthwhile work, have good relationships and I’m just not giving in to it. Today.

Ask me again tomorrow.
 
So I don't have any answers for anyone else because that toxic PTSD and/or Complex Trauma shame may be in a different universe to the Brene Brown, and reading that has taken a huge stressor off me. I was really trying to push myself, and it was taking a huge toll on me, and thanks to @Suzetig for her insight. But I didn't go anywhere near BB until after years of trauma therapy, and a hundred other approaches.

When I started off trying to do Self Compassion it used to trigger suicidal ideation off in me and self hatred, and the all encompassing corrosive self doubt, but I did it like 30 seconds at a time, and some days thinking about it was more than enough, so I am really sick at the moment, so if this is not relevant, doesn't make sense, is not of interest please ignore.

So I started with trauma therapy, then a bit of gentle yoga, and the yoga nidra for Vietnam Veterans. Then after a whole lot of MBSR (which was a disaster at first, and I tried to kill myself for the first time in my life) I came here (self compassion website) and could look at it for a few seconds at a time. Tips for practice - Self-Compassion Thinking about it for a minute used to be out of my skills range. So I l read the Self Compassion website, for a few seconds at a time, but could barely manage to do that dissociated, derealised and depersonalised, and then I listened to the Self Compassion Break - I watched her on YouTube, that was helpful to have it not on so strong, then I read her book, which I gave away, because why would I keep something that might help me? I found The Mindful Way Through Depression audiobook of assistance, and I had listened to it a couple of hundred times before I noticed it has self compassion in it, so my denial precludes me taking in a lot of stuff. I am no role model. I did do other stuff = lots of little things coming in at different angles, then running away before I internally blew up.

I have tried to join a community in real life, and it didn't work out for me, and I was thinking of leaving here as well, as I have this feeling of not belonging, after being having problems with a member (but I won't it is just my reactive attachment stuff again, and I am sick and not ignoring stuff like I sometimes might wisely do). I am in the middle of having surgery so not going so well. But reading what you are writing opened up a space in my brain. I can't even take in what you are all saying but it is good that someone is really talking about this, because I am really jagged on the edge stuck on this stuff.

Recently I started to read Chris Germer's book which at least has strategies and discussion for those that have suffered trauma, but I have to lay down and sleep after reading it sometimes, and I have been trying to read that book for 3-4 years.
 
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So I don't have any answers for anyone else because that toxic PTSD and/or Complex Trauma sham...

I really, really, really hope you don't leave @Living in the 70s ! To me, you are a huge asset to this community and you encourage me, awe me and inspire me, most days.
That was just one individual, I don't know who or what the circumstances are, but they are dealing with their own issues. My trauma brain instantly goes "I hope it's not me! Is it me, did I say something to upset you? I hope not and if I did I'm very sorry, no would never deliberately"...that's what my ptsdy brain goes to, but, yeah, I'm %100 certainly that I'm not the only one who would be sad and feel it's a great loss, if you were to leave, feeling ailienated and attacked and unsafe here. I'm glad this thread is helping. I've never checked out Brene Brown, despite being advised to many times. But I do think you are awesome @Living in the 70s .
 
No it was not you, you have never done anything to me, most people haven't, even ones who challenge me and disagree with me - I learn from that.

And now I threw up I don't feel so emotional about things, and I will delete/change it, it is a long gone person. I am really sick and not managing well, so I will take myself off the forum.

This thread is great but it really has triggered me in a huge way which is really good because I was going in a downward spiral around this stuff.

Sorry to derail the thread, and go off topic, my stuff is overwhelming me today.

Thanks you for being so kind to me and positive to me @mumstheworld, and giving me positive feedback when I am being so messy.
 
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To me this is three steps to getting to be self hating, self ridiculing, self corrosively doubting yourself, suicidal but in another world this is from one of Brene Brown's three steps to dealing with shame talks Brené Brown's 3 Steps To Break The Cycle Of Shame (VIDEO) | HuffPost
  • Talk to yourself like you talk to someone you love. “I would say to myself, ‘God, you’re so stupid, Brene,’” Brown says. “I would never talk to my kids that way.” Well I choose not to have kids and I trash myself badly, not as badly as I used to, but it is still not good.

  • Reach out to someone you trust. I don't really trust anyone that much. I can't trust myself. I really can't trust myself. I am not in contact enough with my body to know when I am in pain or not, or if I am safe or not. Whethere I have cracked bones in my jaw or not, which I did because I was so out of contact with my body and the level of pain I was in I didn't take appropriate action to protect myself. Now I am really infected, sick and facing multiple surgeries.

  • Tell your story. “Shame cannot survive being spoken,” Brown says. Well this is total bullshit, not only has my shame surivived being spoken it has grown and amplified. I did think once of writing an article about how BB and her activities triggers off suicidal ideation in me, but there wouldn't be a big market for it.
BB might need to make some adjustments for people who have been sexually abused since they were 2 years old, or who have PTSD, or Complex Trauma, or a combination of issues. So @Suzetig said some important stuff.
 
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The thing is, those things can help - I know that talking to myself kindly, speaking to people, letting myself trust others are good for me, but they don’t stop me feeling shameful at all. Those things do help me when I’m feeling triggered, do help keep me grounded etc. But shame can totally survive being spoken about - depending on the response of the listener it can be multiplied.

I remember I had to do an autobiography for a training course I was on and the nature of the course meant disclosing some of my trauma. I spoke of something I was particularly ashamed of, that happened to me and remember people in the group gasping aloud at what I had said. Now, I get they were shocked and wanted to show how awful the situation was but my immediate thought was “you can’t handle me, or my experience - I’m too much, I’ll never speak of it again”. And I didn’t in that group.

Speaking it and the response compounded my feeling that there was something wrong with me for that to have happened.
 
most recently, I think my shame is less CD/CB & more well deserved.

I’ve lost everything. Twice, in t...
I feel shame for all those reasons too. But I think the real reason I experienced those repetitive failures is cPTSD. I didn't want to be forgiven or have an excuse. It adds up though. I was sitting in a state therapy office. There was a poster, i never saw it again and I went back and looked for it. It said basically "do you know anyone who has failure to flourish it might be trauma." I know all the reasons why it's all my fault but my experience also shows me the pathology so? I got a break I guess. It's hard to explain the split I felt in my mind regarding this. I still feel it but not so much. Now what, if anything can I do, which of course introduces the fear of shame. The therapist told me I was "hollowed out and consumed" by shame. I don't understand that except perfectly. In the meantime, feeling a little better has advantages.
 
I am feeling shame because I cannot get my sh*t together anymore and do the things I want to do an...

This is absolutely me. I feel shame for the way I've behaved & who I became.

Shame is something I constantly battle, I feel shame when I do something compulsive.

I feel shame when I don't stand up for myself, I feel like a weak small child!

Conversely I feel shame when I get angry, as though I shouldn't do. I feel damned if I do, damned if I don't!
 
This is kind of off to the side but I’m sad at all the Brene Brown hate. I know so many people that have been helped by her work. She isn’t necessarily speaking to highly traumatized people like most of us here. We may be able to benefit from her stuff when we’re much further along in the healing process.
I see it like this: You’re riding a horse that has been ridden for many years. It has some issues but they are simple enough to correct with some basic instruction. Then you have this Mustang over here that has never been touched. You can’t just get up and expect to ride it. It’s nowhere near ready yet. You would scare the mess out of the poor thing if you jumped up on its back to try and do the same basic corrections that you were doing with the other horse. It just wouldn’t be able to process what you were trying to do. The corrections in general are a good thing for any horse but not every horse is ready for that in that point of time. Depending on whether the horse has experienced abuse in its life can also change the way you approach corrections later on as well.
Brene Brown has some good info on shame and vulnerability. But it’s more ‘refinement’ stuff. Because of the trauma most of us here have experienced, we have a lot of work before most of us are ready for that.
But anyway, I like her and think she has good insight for ‘regular’ (for lack of a better word) people.
 
This is kind of off to the side but I’m sad at all the Brene Brown hate. I know so many people that...

I don’t think you’ve experienced toxic shame. It’s not a matter of refinement. My shame won’t suddenly respond to vulnerability later on down the road. Everyone who’s been around me during an episode knows what I’m ashamed of....there is no opportunity to be MORE vulnerable because I’m already 100% out there with my shame. This beast is a completely different animal that does not respond to vulnerability.

I honestly think Brené is a one trick vulnerability pony as her solution to everything is “be vulnerable!” I’m not saying it never works, because it does, and she has helped me open up to others.

However, when it comes to anything outside the norm, blanket “be vulnerable” advice just doesn’t cut it.
 
This is kind of off to the side but I’m sad at all the Brene Brown hate
I don’t hate her at all, I know her work and some of it has been helpful. You clearly didn’t read where I said her work is fine for common or garden shameful feelings, but that trauma is different (ie exactly the same thing you said). But. Any time anyone mentions feeling shameful, someone will trott out a whole load of “read Brene Brown, watch her TED talk” as if it’s some kind of magic wand. I didn’t want random Brene Brown quotes popping up in a discussion of a feeling that runs right through my core.

I wanted a thread where people could honestly grapple with very hard, ingrained feelings of shame without being told “the cure” in the form of Brene Brown. And then feeling more shamed because she doesn’t work for them. And I really think that pulling her work into every discussion about shame just gives a way to avoid talking about the actual feelings, the day to day impact of those feelings and how limiting it can be to carry shame.

So, I’m really not that bothered about whether you think she’s the best thing since sliced bread, and I’ve no idea why you want to come on here to defend her when I’m pretty sure she doesn’t care that there’s a discussion about shame that she isn’t invited into. By all means pull up a chair and talk about how gut wrenching, toe curling shame can be, but leave Brene at the door please.
 
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