How Do Others Piece Together The Jigsaw Of Trauma?

[maddog]

Interesting Girl3, very interesting. I think it's very healthily debatable as to whether or not all thought processes and autonomic reactions are amenable to cognitive change, and I personally don't have a definitive view either way yet, though have been very much grappling with this issue of late.

My long time view has been the same as yours and it's why as much as I respect the cognitive-based interventions for their practicality, robustness and general good solid effectiveness, I have always felt some frustration with them at the extreme, because I've always carried the view that some of those instinctive, hard-wired, amigdala-based survival mechanisms are far too spontaneous and ingrained to be, as you say, amenable to cognitive intervention. And I think I do still believe this. But I also believe that long term, successful cognitive interventions can strengthen to the point at which they can kick in very very quickly to defuse and redirect a lot of the instinctual, fight/flight/freeze reactions that are so symptomatic of PTSD, so that while we may always experience those feelings and spontaneous reactions briefly, they can be interupted and overwhelmed quickly enough to permit a very high degree of improved functionality over time.

I'm well aware that I'm using terms very generically, not explaining myself well and being rather simplistic in general, but my point is that I do think that all thought processes are, to some degree, amenable to cognitive interventions, it's just that some are more easily managed than others, and some will always remain a challenge to cognitive domination while others may be completely reversed with time, patience and therapy.

Very interesting though, and a concept I reserve the right to change my mind about any old time!!!

Totally agree re the importance of trust and the time factor associated with schema therapy. I personally find it outstandingly beneficial when used in conjunction with a range of other strategies and tools, but it's true... it hurts like hell and can set you back multiple times and send you in all sorts of different directions that neither you nor your T saw coming. I imagine it's particularly challenging and demanding for the T too - asks a lot of them in terms of personal investment, boundary management and self awareness. I reckon it's worth the journey though.

Maddog

 

[PTSD sufferer]

I find it very difficult to accept that one of my son's has narcisstic tendencies, which I know he has . This son shares the same T as me which is interesting and helpful. He has diagnosed my son with asperger's syndrome. has also diagnosed my deceased husband with asperger's syndrome via discusssion. I am aware of the inaccuracies in such a diagnosis, but if nothing else it highlights certain behavioural tendenceis. My husband's family has a history of alcohol intolerance. Another son also is alcohol intolerant, and no longer drinks but is compassionate.

Tonight my first mentioned son came home, he was agitated about a teacing placement. His behaviour confirmed for me that he is not safe, it is a hard call as a mother .His behaviour does not make me feel safe. As I said before I will put a lock on my door. Later tonight he said he was sorry for another out burst of behaviour! It is like saying sorry makes it all ok .When I said it frightens me,his demeanour showedI I was supposed to say it was all ok, This is probably my fault, i used to say I love you unconditioinally.

Because all my boundaries have been violated I don't know how to make boundaries!
It seems like an endless cycle: my father, my deceased husband and one son.

Hi Purple Butterfly,

I can see your dilemma. This is a really hard one! Love, go ahead and put a lock on your door. Do what you need to to make yourself feel safe. If a locked room allows you a 'space' in your home where you feel safe, then this is the right thing to do. Give yourself permission to feel safe.

I know boundary setting is difficult. My own family has 'learnt' some bad behaviors from my father and I make sure that when they behave badly I point out their bad behavior.

My husbands' father is an emotional abuser, and his wife and children have also learnt some very bad language and behaviors. However, the point is that these behaviors are learnt and not a part of their personality. So setting boundaries with them has helped to curb their behavior.

Boundary setting is very important. There are consequences for over stepping boundaries, and you need to determine what these consequences look like. However, you can have multiple go's at setting boundaries before you have to decide on and administer the consequences.

Here are some words that help to establish boundaries:

'You do not speak to me like that'.
'Your language is abusive and I will not tolerate abusive language anymore'
'I will not stand here while you fling abusive words at me'
'You can say you are sorry all you like, that does not change the fact that you have behaved in an abusive manner - and this will never be forgiven'
'Your father may think this is acceptable behavior, but it is not'
'Did you enjoy when your father spoke to you like that? No...so what makes you think this is acceptable language'
'You, and only you, have the power to change your language and behavior for the positive - that means being conscious of your emotions, language and behavior and not taking it out on the people around you'.
'You are overstepping a boundary with me by speaking to me in an abusive way'
'There are consequences for your actions and behaviors'.
'If you continue to speak to me this way, you will have to accept the consequences of your actions'

[Other might like to add to the statements to help you set boundaries]

When they apologize I always say:

'There are three parts to an apology. Firstly, you must identify the behavior or language that you are apologizing for. Secondly, you must state why that behavior or language was inappropriate. Thirdly, you must make a commitment to NOT use that language or behavior again'..... 'You are a smart [gal/guy] and you can change your language and behavior for the better. If you do use that language/ behavior again with me, then there will be consequences. Be smart, change the way you engage with me for the better - I can guarantee that both you and I will be happier'.

Pointing out bad behavior, then walking away and not giving in by providing emotional stimulus such as a hug or kiss is important. Be firm and strong. You deserve to be treated in a way that makes you feel loved, happy and safe.

Hugs and much love, xxoo

 

[PTSD sufferer]

P.S. There is another side to love, its called 'tough love'. It does not mean that you don't love him unconditionally anymore, it just means that you are being 'tough' on him, because you love him. Being tough, means that you are helping him to improve who he is and how he interacts with people. You are being 'tough' to help him in the long-run.

 

[purple butterfly]

PTSD sufferer

thank you for your empathy in setting boundaries, when your own boundaries have been violated and it is a new experience to take control, especially with those you love. In saying this, I am in no way negating the importance of boundaries. I need to let my rational brain take over from my emotional brain.

Your quotes to help establish boundaries are so helpful, it makes the concept so concrete.

 

[ms spock]

Later tonight he said he was sorry for another out burst of behaviour! It is like saying sorry makes it all ok .When I said it frightens me,his demeanour showedI I was supposed to say it was all ok, This is probably my fault, i used to say I love you unconditioinally.

Because all my boundaries have been violated I don't know how to make boundaries!
It seems like an endless cycle: my father, my deceased husband and one son.

Hey you are making great progress in noticing your son's behaviours so Let us Not Perpetuate the Emotional Violence against ourselves for beating ourselves for not having skills that we didn't acquire as young children because we lived in dysfunctional and disorder families.

If people are not behaving abusively then it is okay to love them unconditionally. The person inflicting the the abusive behaviour is the one with the problem, not you. I think this is a basic boundary to draw. You are not at fault for your son making choices to behave in unacceptable and abusive ways.

I don't know how to make boundaries that well either so there is lots of room for practice. I would suggest that you draw a boundary about not practicing your boundaries around your son that makes you unsafe. Practice boundary making with generous and open hearted people like your daughter.

This may or may not be helpful but kick him out and get an order against him. You are not helping him by not making him face the consequences of his behaviour. Work out a plan with your T and get friends to come over and stay and ring the police if he comes back.

This is not an okay way to live - in fear for yourself.

Please don't beat yourself up - other people are responsible for they way that they choose to behave.

Ignore if not helpful.

You are going great guns - you are noticing the behaviour and seeing the game within it if you don't perform to his script - this is great awareness. Praise yourself for being brave enough to see his behaviour for this is a courageous act.

ox
ms spock

 

[ms spock]

This pretty much sums up how I feel about setting boundaries:

In my experience taking a stand for yourself tends to suck for a good long while before you settle and get comfortable in your skin. And about 50% of that comes from not having a support group to make you feel okay in your own skin when you start. The other 50% is realizing that being cool with who you are comes down to a choice you practice. Which half you get over first is a lot like the chicken and egg question. Doesn't really matter.

That is the best I have read it described. Thank you for your clarity.
ms spock

 

[ms spock]

When they apologize I always say:

'There are three parts to an apology. Firstly, you must identify the behavior or language that you are apologizing for. Secondly, you must state why that behavior or language was inappropriate. Thirdly, you must make a commitment to NOT use that language or behavior again'..... 'You are a smart [gal/guy] and you can change your language and behavior for the better. If you do use that language/ behavior again with me, then there will be consequences. Be smart, change the way you engage with me for the better - I can guarantee that both you and I will be happier'.

Pointing out bad behavior, then walking away and not giving in by providing emotional stimulus such as a hug or kiss is important. Be firm and strong. You deserve to be treated in a way that makes you feel loved, happy and safe.

Hugs and much love, xxoo

Wow that is great! I am so much from reading this thread!

Totally awesome strategies. Once I have finished my exams I am writing this one down and practicing it.

 

[purple butterfly]

Thank you so much you have all offered great support and insight. It helps so much to realise we are not alone.

 

[ms spock]

Not being alone like we were when we were children is so important.

There is something associated with our reptilian brain in that - we are primates. Belonging is hardwired in to us I believe - it is a strategy of evolution to keep us alive and safe.

 

[PTSD sufferer]

Let us Not Perpetuate the Emotional Violence against ourselves by beating ourselves for not having skills that we didn't acquire as young children because we lived in dysfunctional and disorder families.

The person inflicting the the abusive behaviour is the one with the problem, not you. I think this is a basic boundary to draw. You are not at fault for your son making choices to behave in unacceptable and abusive ways.

Practice boundary making.

I agree with the three comments from Ms Spock's.

1) Don't perpetuate the violence by beating yourself up - it's not your fault.

2) It is HIS problem NOT yours - As an adult, he is responsible and accountable for his own actions. You are not.

3) The first boundary setting exercise to undertake is giving yourself permission. You HAVE a right to feel hurt and you HAVE a right to set boundaries.

Setting boundaries is not about dropping the emotional reaction you have, emotional reactions go hand in hand with boundary setting. We have an emotional reaction to abusive behavior because it oversteps a boundary you already have set in your unconscious brain - to protect your core beliefs and values or your inner child or your expectations on how you SHOULD be treated. That's why it hurts much more when people we love do this, because we EXPECT and believe that they will respect us and treat us with love. This is common in everyone.

How do I use my emotions in boundary setting? - I firstly acknowledge that I am having this emotion because of the above and I have a RIGHT to have these emotions. They are mine and I have a right to be upset and to feel, and no one can tell me differently. Then step two is about understanding WHY I am reacting emotionally. That is because a predefined boundary has been overstepped (as mentioned above). So the boundary is already there. Step there is about ARTICULATING that boundary with the person who has violated it (using the aforementioned statements).

I don't believe you should 'practice' on your daughter by setting boundaries with her, she is not the one overstepping the boundaries. But I do believe that you should ask her or your therapist if they can 'ROLE PLAY' with you. Asking your daughter to role play will probably give her some very useful skills too! That way you can practice the situations to make the boundary setting statements more of an 'immediate' response. You don't need to explain the emotions you feel, just learn to REACT SWIFTLY with any boundary setting statement.

Being emotional is not a bad thing- it is one of your 'multiple intelligences' (we have many types and decrees of intelligence). It is actually called just that - 'emotional intelligence'. It is a highly desirable type of intelligence to have (do a amazon search for 'emotional intelligence' and you will see the number of books that try to train people to have the emotional smarts we already have!). Setting boundaries is about ACKNOWLEDGING the emotion, identifying the WHY of the emotion and the setting the BOUNDARY to stop others violating you rights.

Hope this helps, xxoo

 

[Abelabelabel]

Rough night. Just as early as last Thursday, realized how far I'd come with some of the things I'd felt I was struggling with. So many positive experiences over the past week. Friends, Family and strangers seemed to be giving me all the reassurance I could have ever asked for.
Then Tonight. Went out to a show at the House of Blues to see a friends band play. Was a little anxious to be cruising out seeing people I just met alone, but went anyway figuring I'd see people I know when I got there and have a good time. Was feeling anxious for a good half of the day, and could not pin down what was triggering it, and could not stop the flow of negative thoughts all day. By the time I got to the show I wanted to crawl under a rock, and saw several people I knew. Instead of feeling releived and happy to see farmiliar faces I dreaded interacting with these people seeing only humiliation, rejection, and hopelessness. Why are all these feelings so intense?
On the one hand I was so spaced out I could barely form a sentence. On the other hand, I had put in the time and effort to drive out to the show to check things out. I was so "checked out" by the time I got there I couldn't feel anything but miserable and a million miles away from the experience I was having. I was so distracted when interacting with people, and so knocked off my feet by who knows what triggers, a night of checking out music and seeing people I knew turned in to a sort of personal hell. Suddenly everything became work. Despite all the positive experiences I've had in the past week. . . talking to friends, family, and others.
All of that seemed to evaporate and I was in a sort of stupor. I couldn't put my finger on it, I couldn't help but think I was being a bad representative for myself. I ran in to several people I did not know very well and wanted to set a good impresssion. . . . not possible when I feel like I'm sleep walking. Although I can't deny that much of the negative thinking started with me, but I was overwhelmed by it. It was if I had already decided that I was going to feel rejected, vulnerable, miserable, and hopeless. But why? Why were all of these feelings overwhelmingly strong?
I eventually got home, feeling extremely drained, confused, and upset. I was glad I went out. But can't help but feel that I looked very strange to these people I wanted to be happy to see, and to impress maybe. I was so off kilter, that I felt intensely vulnerable, and a little trapped. Facing this absolutely baffling difficulty in certain social situations literally sucks the life and enthusiasm out of me. Even as I write this I've thought about trying to take small steps to sort of crawl back to a more positive state of mind. But I couldn't do it. The fatigue I feel right now, even though I got 8 hours of sleep last night, is unbelievable. Even if all of this is temporary, and will fade away by tomorrow, I feel sucked dry. I've effectively turned all these people that I ran in to in to reminders, and possibly associated triggers of whatever the heck I was feeling tonight. How do I escape this? With all the progress I've made, there still seems to be like some kind of "monster" inside of me that hijacks my well being. Compared to all the positive experiences I've had, it makes them seem like I was lulled in to a false sense of security where I'd somehow be more protected from these "attacks" of intense negative feelings. Everything gets slightly twisted, and it takes more energy then I have to untwist it. How can anyone prepare for this?

 

[Sterre]

Abelabelabel,
Wow, I 'm so impressed by the way you are able to describe the proces that goes on internally!
I can relate to it in almost every single way, you are giving words to feelings and processes I could not find words to, so thanks!

You ask "' How can anyone prepare for this?'

It's my experience that you cannot prepare yourself for those feelings to suddenly come up and overwhelm you.
You can only observe them like you did, and accept it for now.
Maybe there will come a point in time, where you will know how to constructively respond to the first signs of this loop youre in while giong out and meeting people.
It starts with one trigger, and then rapidly winds up and up untill you feel the way you did. Inadequate, ashamed, guilty, uncomfortable, and so on.
You are allready diong a great job by keeping your head clear and analising whats happening, thats all you can do for now. You are learning about yourself and your triggers and the patterns they follow, in a major way!

There will come a time, where you can recognize the first triggers and respond to them in a way that it wont spiral out of control.
Eventhoug it feels like shit right now, You are doing a great job!
Don't get incouraged, dont trick yourself into believing that you are not good enough!
It is exhausting, I know!

You cannot prepare untill you learn to recognize, and you can only learn to recognize by getting caught up in situations like this.
And sometimes you'll just have to accept that this is how you are wired sometimes, and not blame yourself for it.