It's a tough call with the unions here, though. I'd still back them, even with a back-handed intent. They always get out of hand, the pendulum swings, we lose them, the workers suffer since bald-faced Capitalism is generally always worse. Then the pendulum swings back and they get a foot-hold again.Like everything else with power involved there's no balance in the end-the little guy always gets the raw end of the deal in the US. Still-more little guys benefit from Union involvement than your basic Corporate set-up so I'd still back them-just doing it with zero illusions.
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News Anyone Involved In The Occupy Wallstreet? Or Another City?
- Post starter Srain
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- Post starter
- #38
The important thing I see happening here in the States is not the politics getting involved FIRST but the PEOPLE saying "enough!" ...I have watched my relatively middle-class neighborhood fall apart...families losing homes with children that have grown up here, police officers having to move their families out because they DON'T HAVE A JOB ANYMORE.
It's outlandish the cutbacks. This is my stand.
It's outlandish the cutbacks. This is my stand.
ms spock
VIP Member
Okay Anthony we will just have to agree to disagree.
I don't have time to go through your post now but as a law student studying the constitution we looked at the implied right to freedom of speech as discerned by our High Court Judges. I have never confused American law with Australian law. None of the persons I have organised protests with have either.
As a first year law student you read that seminal judgement on the saying of the "f" word and it not being a reason to be taken in to custody. It is one of the most quoted judgements in Australian legal history. I will eventually find that judgement for you as it is not only a very interesting judgement but it is written with such humour and wit.
I have been to Port Moresby. I am aware of the problems.
I know white people who were sold by their white parents for money and drugs so it is not an exclusively Aboriginal preserve. There was a recent Tasmania case with a 12 year old girl.
This book is about a white woman sold by her mother "In Moral Danger: A True Story" by Biggs, Barbara - this is a real eye opener.
I was not lecturing you about Indigenous rights, I was challenging your assertion that the police don't beat people up here in Australia. If someone dies in a police cell and their body is all bruised and battered, then yes, the police have beaten them up.
As a white student going to a exclusive private school I was never once pulled up by the police, hit by them, asked for a ticket or had my bag searched.
As a white young women who went with her Indigenous friends from Redfern I can't tell you the number of times I was manhandled, slammed in to doors with my Aboriginal friends, searched, beaten on the way to school when I was 15, 16, 17 of age.
Recently I took a white woman who insisted that I was not telling the truth about getting searched between Town Hall and Central station 6 times - well we got search a lot more that night when I went with her and my Indigenous friends. She was totally in shock over the treatment of us all.
I still would like a business name and number that I can ring to find out that workers were actually sacked due to the protests. When I am up in Sydney on Thursday or next Tuesday I might actually go to the businesses in that area and seek out where happened. There is no way that would be allowed to happen. The police really would have been called in if that was happening.
I have seen a lot first hand as well. I saw it at the beginning of people's lives and it reads like you saw it happen at the end of their lives. I saw a 5 year old indigenous get kicked in the head by a police officer on horse back as they rode back. She was just playing a game on the footpath of the street. Something I did all the time as a child and I never got kicked in the head by the police.
Sunrise Friday is not really a authorative source - I have seen them play an interview as being "live" when another tv station actually was having the interview live. Then there is the time they reported stuff off twitter without actually checking their facts.
ms spock
I don't have time to go through your post now but as a law student studying the constitution we looked at the implied right to freedom of speech as discerned by our High Court Judges. I have never confused American law with Australian law. None of the persons I have organised protests with have either.
As a first year law student you read that seminal judgement on the saying of the "f" word and it not being a reason to be taken in to custody. It is one of the most quoted judgements in Australian legal history. I will eventually find that judgement for you as it is not only a very interesting judgement but it is written with such humour and wit.
I have been to Port Moresby. I am aware of the problems.
I know white people who were sold by their white parents for money and drugs so it is not an exclusively Aboriginal preserve. There was a recent Tasmania case with a 12 year old girl.
This book is about a white woman sold by her mother "In Moral Danger: A True Story" by Biggs, Barbara - this is a real eye opener.
I was not lecturing you about Indigenous rights, I was challenging your assertion that the police don't beat people up here in Australia. If someone dies in a police cell and their body is all bruised and battered, then yes, the police have beaten them up.
As a white student going to a exclusive private school I was never once pulled up by the police, hit by them, asked for a ticket or had my bag searched.
As a white young women who went with her Indigenous friends from Redfern I can't tell you the number of times I was manhandled, slammed in to doors with my Aboriginal friends, searched, beaten on the way to school when I was 15, 16, 17 of age.
Recently I took a white woman who insisted that I was not telling the truth about getting searched between Town Hall and Central station 6 times - well we got search a lot more that night when I went with her and my Indigenous friends. She was totally in shock over the treatment of us all.
I still would like a business name and number that I can ring to find out that workers were actually sacked due to the protests. When I am up in Sydney on Thursday or next Tuesday I might actually go to the businesses in that area and seek out where happened. There is no way that would be allowed to happen. The police really would have been called in if that was happening.
I have seen a lot first hand as well. I saw it at the beginning of people's lives and it reads like you saw it happen at the end of their lives. I saw a 5 year old indigenous get kicked in the head by a police officer on horse back as they rode back. She was just playing a game on the footpath of the street. Something I did all the time as a child and I never got kicked in the head by the police.
Sunrise Friday is not really a authorative source - I have seen them play an interview as being "live" when another tv station actually was having the interview live. Then there is the time they reported stuff off twitter without actually checking their facts.
ms spock
Happy Head
Gold Member
I wish I could go but I can't do crowds. :eek: Plus I just read where 20 people were arrested in my city - not sure why - but yeah, the idea of mass crowds, potential for the unknown... doesn't sit well with the ptsd. But I'm there in spirit.
- Admin
- #41
anthony
Founder
Yes, all races of people do stupid things. If you're a law student, then you are young, and you would know that youth are being targeted heavily on rail platforms now, because a growing trend in youth is to carry knives. You make out that being searched is an inconvenience to you and that you're being hard done... when lets face facts, if youth today weren't being arrested due to carrying concealed knives, then the Police would not have to take such measures by randomly screening train platforms.
You can also imply discrimination that an aboriginal is more likely to be searched, however; the statistics also show what demographics are higher risks. That is a more apt way of putting it. Youth in general are most likely to be searched vs. me being a near 40 year old, when getting off a train. If youths weren't carrying knives with the attitude, well, some bad guy pulled one on us, so we need them to protect ourselves mentality, the issue wouldn't be present. Police have cut the number of knives drastically by the action they've taken.
You seem to have an issue with the Police doing their jobs! As a law student, you should know better I would think, and you would be more knowledgeable than I about demographics for types of crime. Lets be honest, aboriginal are a high demographic. A lebanese community is a high demographic. Poor communities are a high demographic. The list goes on and on...
If you know these demographics as a law student, then is it really right to complain about them? Yes, not every youth or every aboriginal, or every Lebanese youth, etc, is a criminal or purporting such activities... but the statistics don't discriminate, so they check as many that fit within the statistical demographic as possible, and yet the Police continue to pull knives and weapons from them at train stations.
That is like trying to discuss white collar crimes and bring in such a term with a poor community, aboriginals, youth, etc... they aren't the demographic for the crime, so when Police go hunting such crime, they have an older, wealthier demographic in their sights.
It's not racist, it's not personal, it's demographics and statistics that dictate Police action.
There were 5, I think from memory, police cars heavily damaged in Sydney when they removed those camping from the protests. The police didn't damage their own cars... the protesters did. Still going to try and tell me that protesters are innocent and not violent? Lets look at some of the protests we've had... crowds go from a point to breaking shop windows, damaging cars, others property, which has nothing to do with the point trying to be made... yet a demographic turn violent within an otherwise well maintained group.
Put a large group of people in one location with an agenda, and the simple facts are its a recipe for possible disaster. Australia is one of the safest, richest countries in the world, and I would like it to stay that way... so if the Police have to forcibly remove people who fail to comply with their directions, good on them I say.
You can also imply discrimination that an aboriginal is more likely to be searched, however; the statistics also show what demographics are higher risks. That is a more apt way of putting it. Youth in general are most likely to be searched vs. me being a near 40 year old, when getting off a train. If youths weren't carrying knives with the attitude, well, some bad guy pulled one on us, so we need them to protect ourselves mentality, the issue wouldn't be present. Police have cut the number of knives drastically by the action they've taken.
You seem to have an issue with the Police doing their jobs! As a law student, you should know better I would think, and you would be more knowledgeable than I about demographics for types of crime. Lets be honest, aboriginal are a high demographic. A lebanese community is a high demographic. Poor communities are a high demographic. The list goes on and on...
If you know these demographics as a law student, then is it really right to complain about them? Yes, not every youth or every aboriginal, or every Lebanese youth, etc, is a criminal or purporting such activities... but the statistics don't discriminate, so they check as many that fit within the statistical demographic as possible, and yet the Police continue to pull knives and weapons from them at train stations.
That is like trying to discuss white collar crimes and bring in such a term with a poor community, aboriginals, youth, etc... they aren't the demographic for the crime, so when Police go hunting such crime, they have an older, wealthier demographic in their sights.
It's not racist, it's not personal, it's demographics and statistics that dictate Police action.
There were 5, I think from memory, police cars heavily damaged in Sydney when they removed those camping from the protests. The police didn't damage their own cars... the protesters did. Still going to try and tell me that protesters are innocent and not violent? Lets look at some of the protests we've had... crowds go from a point to breaking shop windows, damaging cars, others property, which has nothing to do with the point trying to be made... yet a demographic turn violent within an otherwise well maintained group.
Put a large group of people in one location with an agenda, and the simple facts are its a recipe for possible disaster. Australia is one of the safest, richest countries in the world, and I would like it to stay that way... so if the Police have to forcibly remove people who fail to comply with their directions, good on them I say.
ms spock
VIP Member
Look at the Memorial for John Pat which was built in front of the prison walls of the old Fremantle Prison. It was erected in September 1994 "in memory of all Aboriginal people who have died in custody in Australia".
John Pat was beaten by police in Australia an died as a consequence. A subsequent autopsy of John Pat revealed a fractured skull, haemorrhage and swelling as well as bruising and tearing, of the brain. One bruise at the back of his head was the size of the palm of one's hand. Pat had sustained a number of massive blows to the head.
Actually you are incorrect saying that police are informed by statistics, the Royal Commission found that the application of the law was biased towards people who were Aboriginal. That is, they responded in more physically violent ways towards indigenous peoples, than they did, to the corresponding white people doing exactly the same crime. The research is in. We have robust data on these issues. Even the most conservative right wing professors I had as a law student would teach it this way. It is known fact.
FYI I am no longer a law student.
And thanks Anthony for your robust and detailed debate! I appreciate it greatly.
ms spock
Well if your family members who got killed after walking up the street to get some milk and looking Aboriginal you might have a different way of seeing it.
Link Removed
Really worth a read.
And if your people have been undergoing training in how to participate in non violent civil disobedience activities for the last three months with solicitors, the odd barrister and experienced people in non violent civil disobedience and then you got the crap beaten out of you, you might have a different perspective yet again.
ms spock
In the protests I ran, it was always an under cover police officer that started the violence. The media portray it in a certain way because it meets the needs of those who own 70% of it aka Rupert Murdoch.
You can hold a protest with 10,000 people in Australia an it won't get on the news. It is very selective coverage.
ms spock
John Pat was beaten by police in Australia an died as a consequence. A subsequent autopsy of John Pat revealed a fractured skull, haemorrhage and swelling as well as bruising and tearing, of the brain. One bruise at the back of his head was the size of the palm of one's hand. Pat had sustained a number of massive blows to the head.
Actually you are incorrect saying that police are informed by statistics, the Royal Commission found that the application of the law was biased towards people who were Aboriginal. That is, they responded in more physically violent ways towards indigenous peoples, than they did, to the corresponding white people doing exactly the same crime. The research is in. We have robust data on these issues. Even the most conservative right wing professors I had as a law student would teach it this way. It is known fact.
FYI I am no longer a law student.
And thanks Anthony for your robust and detailed debate! I appreciate it greatly.
ms spock
Well if your family members who got killed after walking up the street to get some milk and looking Aboriginal you might have a different way of seeing it.
Link Removed
Really worth a read.
And if your people have been undergoing training in how to participate in non violent civil disobedience activities for the last three months with solicitors, the odd barrister and experienced people in non violent civil disobedience and then you got the crap beaten out of you, you might have a different perspective yet again.
ms spock
In the protests I ran, it was always an under cover police officer that started the violence. The media portray it in a certain way because it meets the needs of those who own 70% of it aka Rupert Murdoch.
You can hold a protest with 10,000 people in Australia an it won't get on the news. It is very selective coverage.
ms spock
- Admin
- #44
anthony
Founder
Yes, some police have lost control... I remember one in Townsville when I was living up their. I believe that officer lost his job and faced criminal prosecution. So the very law he was to protect, he broke, thus he suffered the consequences. Police aren't immune, and they do get punished if they break the law.
There is no point talking about the past though... to the extent of decades, because the past has brought change that we live in now. Geez, the military used to have a box room back in 1990's and before, where if you screwed up you would get tossed in there and fight with the section commander... basically, more than likely have the crap beaten out of you.
They don't do it now though... past, learning, social change, adaption, present...
Protesters in Sydney and Melbourne did the wrong thing... they got arrested and dismantled as a result.
This is not a black death thread, so please keep agendas out and remain on topic.
There is no point talking about the past though... to the extent of decades, because the past has brought change that we live in now. Geez, the military used to have a box room back in 1990's and before, where if you screwed up you would get tossed in there and fight with the section commander... basically, more than likely have the crap beaten out of you.
They don't do it now though... past, learning, social change, adaption, present...
Protesters in Sydney and Melbourne did the wrong thing... they got arrested and dismantled as a result.
This is not a black death thread, so please keep agendas out and remain on topic.
Here in the US it is public knowledge that JP Morgan Chase gave a 4.6 million US$ donation to NYPD during the protests - immediately after were the 700 arrests on the Brooklyn Bridge - it is hard to say if they would have conducted themselves differently without the donation - but they have been #1 in our country of attacking peaceful protesters in what appears to be an attempt to provoke them into riot. I don't know if you've all seen the whole thing on Anthony Bologna (Officer Tony Bologna) - and yes there are two side to every story --- but the footage of this man walking by casually pepper spaying a crowd of peaceful protesters was very telling - I don't agree w/what Anonymous pulled in response ---- but regardless I see what's going on in NY as a big flashing red warning sign -- our police can be bought just like our politicians -- all of our governmental departments are vulnerable to corruption. How do we change that --- my guess is as good as yours, but I personally don't have the conscience to stand by with this knowledge & to do nothing about it, esp. with this opportunity to join my brothers & sisters in resistance -- I have to, I just don't have another choice.
ms spock
VIP Member
Yes if they apply the laws on littering more to indigenous peoples than white peoples.
Yes if they use unnecessary force on people that are peacefully protesting.
Yes if they kill a person in their custody.
Even some of the police I have worked very closely with have expressed their concerns and horror at some of the things that happen to indigenous peoples in the area I live in now - and it is not a rural setting. They are too scared to say anything against their colleagues because of a variety of reasons.
It has been found to be quite racist and personal in a number of studies as well as the Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody and by some of the police I have worked closely with.
Like you, Anthony, I have been on the front line and seen it in all its glory.
Once the police searched me, (after I had been selected to be in various committees) and my indigenous friends and found a card (in my wallet) from the commissioner (I was on a number of consulting committees) - in that particular area from that particular police force, my friends and my self never received 'the treatment' from them like that again. If 'the treatment' and the behaviour was legal and law abiding I don't think that they would have stopped.
Any way I can't deal with that anymore because of my ptsd.
Thanks Anthony,
as always you have the courage of your convictions and you speak with your own honest and true heart. I do admire you greatly. Though you don't agree with me and I don't agree with me it is an honour to debate with a man of such great spirit and generosity.
ms spock
ms spock
VIP Member
Okay fair call but you said the police don't beat people up in Australia. I used the Royal Commission into Aboriginal Custody due to your assertion that the police don't beat people up in Australia. In fact, the Royal Commission, found and documents police beating people up in Australia up to and including death.
ms spock
I don't know about Melbourne, no one I know was there. But they were portrayed as doing the wrong thing in Sydney and some of these people were from a wide range of groups. They were unfairly bashed and physically manhandled.
Once again we will have to agree to disagree.
ms spock
*shakes head*
I personally know of a whole range of cases where this is not what happens in Australia.
That police officer must have really stepped over the line because they get away with it all the time. That was another thing we studied at law school in a bit of detail (and those are not the cases I am referring to when I say I know a whole lot of cases where they haven't been prosecuted for breaking the law.)
The fact that some one as intelligent and well informed as you believes this is really scary for me.
It is definitely not the past, learning, social change, adaption have not bled through to the present in many, many, many ways.
I am gone from this thread now. Thanks Anthony for the robust debate and dialogue. You are a champ!
ms spock
- Post starter
- #48
Occupy has cropped up in the smallest of towns and finally hit one of my hometowns, oddly one of the most outspoken people for their right set up on a campus notorious in past for demonstrations is a woman that is ingrained in my past :eek:...I was also surprised at the lag time seeing as my area is known for taking opposite views and has had a month start on them.
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