Is It Possible That I'm Making All This Up?

[Sdn]

With my mom- it was more like, anything she didn't want to acknowledge just "disappeared!"

My parents did similar things, rewriting history as it suited them. Your mention of being force fed sometimes and starved others reminds me of how inconsistent my parents were. The cruel, contrary nature of it was the consistency.

But I don't think they were deliberately toying with my sense of reality.

If they gaslighted you, then that is what you are left to deal with regardless of why they did it and how they justified it to themselves. It is probably impossible to know with certainty how much was intentional. Trying to navigate a maze of lies is playing the liar's game and giving them power over you.

 

[angel2write]

Okay. I must say though, that it sounds near psychotic to me if they are so divorced from reality, that they'd deny demonstrable facts.

My favorite one was when my dad kicked down the bathroom door during a fight to get at her. There was a HOLE in the WALL where the doorknob hit. I could fit my whole fist in it. It was there for about a month before they fixed it. But my mom said they only had a slight "disagreement" and he never "kicked down the door, dear... it was an accident." Ummm... :cautious:

I guess I imagined all the screaming when he pinned her down in the bathroom and hurt her, too. Sheesh.

 

[angel2write]

If they gaslighted you, then that is what you are left to deal with regardless of why they did it and how they justified it to themselves. It is probably impossible to know with certainty how much was intentional. .

Another good point. I'm so used to feeling that if it wasn't "on purpose" it shouldn't count against them. But maybe even that is twisted thinking. Stuff done by accident or unintentionally can still damage people. And the damage is still there, even if I was only collateral damage. Their marriage was a train-wreck and I was a spectator that got injured just by being there sometimes.

 

[freakofnurture]

@angel2write: Haha, yeah, disagreement ô.o Wow...

Reminds me of my mom who found it such a funny anecdote how my f*ther pinned me down and forced open my mouth to brush my teeth 'because it was the only way and it had to be done'. Of course she told him to not do it again and it only happened this once, clearly.

EDIT:

I'm so used to feeling that if it wasn't "on purpose" it shouldn't count against them.

Exclamation mark. Everything that hurts does count.

 

[Eleanor]

Angel, I want you to know how terribly sorry I am that your parents failed you so badly.:cry: And how much I admire your tenacity in hanging on to reality and trying to relearn how to be in the world and trust that which is actually trustworthy. You go girl!

I thought gaslighting referred to a deliberate tactic by someone to abuse or control someone else.

Yup - and IMHO your parents were deliberately (it wasn't accidental was it?) rewriting history and denying your perceptions and knowledge and experience, specifically minimizing your pain and concern, so that you would not treat their abuse as abuse and would not rebel against their deranged treatment of you and each other. The question of moral culpability for that is slightly, but importantly different. (see below.)

With my mom- it was more like, anything she didn't want to acknowledge just "disappeared!" Reality became what she needed it to be at the moment. And evidence was to no avail. I could have showed her a document she wrote and signed and she would have said I forged it. She would have been ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN she had never written it, so I must have forged it.

Ok, so she didn't set out to abuse you in particular, it was just reality as a whole that she was intending to do violence to. I have to say, I am a bit stumped as to which is worse.:confused::eek: Her willingness to turn her daughter into a liar is stunning. Her willingness to simply abandon truth is terrifying. I don't know if this is psychosis - but its kissing cousins anyhow.

I guess with my dad there was more controlling intent. (It makes me so crazy even trying to think about it, I almost can't!) With my dad, I was always "misunderstanding" what had happened. It happened, but I warped and twisted it. I was stupid or diseased in the brain any time I disagreed with his version of anything.

Ok, so this doesn't sound accidental. This sure seems like classic gaslighting to me. Sounds like you were collateral damage here too - but maybe not - how much was he responsible for your mothers delusional thinking? Is it worse to try to make a child believe she is a liar when she is not, or crazy when she is not? Is it worth worrying about which is worse? Probably not. Both are plenty bad.

But I don't think they were deliberately toying with my sense of reality. They were always telling the truth, were totally convinced that they were correct and I was an idiot at all times... it really made me doubt everything. I still feel totally and completely stupid all of the time because I feel like I can't understand or perceive or communicate anything correctly.

Lets be clear; they were not "telling the truth". They may have been telling you what they were committed to espousing at the moment - but neither had a sufficient commitment to either evidence or rational coherence to be properly said to have any relationship with the "truth" whatsoever. (I get a little huffy about the issue of truth. I kind of think it is sacred, so pardon the "tone" please.:alien: ) So long as you DIDN'T buy into their little make-believe world there is likely nothing at all wrong (and quite a little bit right, as you have survived the whole ordeal) with your perception or understanding of reality.:tup:

The unfortunate fact is that most people have a pretty ambivalent relationship with reality, and are more than willing to just dismiss or abuse those who don't want to support their own personal delusions. I am quite strict about how I treat disagreements - I don't automatically judge in my own favor - I investigate and reflect and am partly wrong very often and mostly wrong about as often as I am mostly right, which is not very often. That they would habitually "make" you wrong is the worst sort of abuse you have described IMHO. This is what torturers do. The fact that they could do it in good conscience makes them... what? Nuts. Bad Parents. Dangerous people. Are they morally culpable? Depends on what their intentions were - and without the mythical "intention-o-meter" we will not know. Likely THEY don't/didn't know. They couldn't or wouldn't track simple facts - how could they track something as ephemeral as intentions?

Would it help you to make a distinction between your perception/experiences, and your understanding, and your ability to effectively communicate the two to others? Your perceptions are just facts : "I saw you take the file" Your understanding includes your interpretations of the facts: "I think the file is not yours, and I don't know that you had permission to take it, so I think you stole it." You ability to communicate about this effectively is always relative to the person you are communicating to's ability to hear what you are saying. So saying "Mr X stole the Blackbox file" is a lot easier to the head of security who has always thought Mr. X a rather shady character, than it is to say to his colleague who is having an affair with him and thinks he is a super guy. See what I mean? In order to survive you had to see EVERYTHING - much more than normal people. I suspect you still do. This makes your world harder than average to navigate. Just a guess, but you'd know which it is.

I don't know how to start trusting my own perception of things.

Test them against the other evidence. Use the distinctions between perception/experience and understanding. I'm guessing you are right way more often than not.;)

Like like like like like freakofnature's comment "Everything that hurts does count." You Count!

 

[angel2write]

Wow, Eleanor. This whole thing is really challenging my beliefs about my past. But I think that is a good thing. They probably needed challenging. Thanks. Much to mull on.

 

[shell]

My therapist said after hearing about my past that my mother had borderline personality disorder, which means she could be really nice at times although mostly she was a nightmare. She would regularly deprive me of food and at other times feed me well. There was total inconsistency according to the moods and temper at the time. Many a time I forced to eat liver, at other times it was thrown up the wall and my face rubbed in it.

There are so many things I remember clearly that she denies, and absolutely insists she never did. I often wonder of she was dissociating or something, when she was in a rage, or if it's refusal to accept what a cow she was. Luckily my brother remembers much more than I, so when I was accused of being crazy and making up stories I knew exactly who was correct. Perhaps it hurts her too much, when I rub it in her face.

 

[simplekindofgirl]

Angel (and all others who shared here)- I really, really really need to thank you for this thread. Really.

In my case, some time ago now I had to ask myself the same thing. I had called my brother at 3 am (and I was an emotional wreck) and said, "Bro, I need you to tell me something and I need you to be straight with me. Mom said something and, well, am I all messed up here, am I crazy? Am I wanting to remember things differently because what she is saying goes directly against everything that I remember!"

My brother listened to me, and then he said, "Sis, you remember exactly what I remember. Even the things that are off and contradicting, what you are remembering is what happened. She is wrong."

I still doubt, just because it is in my nature to evaluate and question. Even with my brothers confirmation, I could not help but think, it must be me. I must be crazy.

Thank you for this. This has been such a validation, something that says, this indeed does happen. I needed to read this. My eyes are finally open.

 

[angel2write]

My therapist said after hearing about my past that my mother had borderline personality disorder, which means she could be really nice at times although mostly she was a nightmare.

I've wondered if my mom had that sometimes, too. It might help explain why she kept threatening to leave dad but never did. She'd pack up and kiss us good bye and make this big scene... but she could never really leave. It was like she couldn't even conceive of life without him.

Clingy to the point of smothering, then attacking us viciously for no real reason... that's pretty typical BPD, isn't it?

Yeah, your description sounded a lot like what went on in my house. Only she didn't slam us up against walls. She threw things. Sorry you had to live through that, Shell.

Thank you for this. This has been such a validation, something that says, this indeed does happen. I needed to read this. My eyes are finally open.

((((SKG))))

My sister and I will still kind of do this as adults. When one of us has to deal with our parents in "horrible" mode, we'll call each other up for mental and emotional support. It really helps to have a sibling who can verify things, doesn't it? Unfortunately, since I was older than my sibs, I can verify things for them, but they were too young at the time to help me with some of my worst ones.

 

[Deleted member 1860]

When people tell you something that contradicts your own memories, you start to doubt your sanity.

My experience in this realm is a bit different, but it's very much the same premise, so I do understand where you're coming from.

And....at one point popular psychology touted the idea of false memories. It rarely happens, and most of the time when it does it's because ideas were implanted by someone else in power such as a therapist.

My point is that no, you're not crazy. More like a reasonable reaction to your circumstances.

Your memories are very real. Perhaps, somehow, in the absence of external validation you can gain a personal sense of self-acceptance, trusting that your mind isn't playing some sort of cruel joke on you.