Attachment Issues

[Pencil]

I get more out of our in-between conversations than out of our meetings.

Do you also find it easier to open up when she is not sitting across from you, looking at you?

 

[maddog]

Pencil and 91 Girl, your recent posts in this thread have touched a very deep something in me, something I'd like to respond to, but am having trouble bringing myself to really discuss - for a number of reasons.

Most who've been on this forum a while know that I have a very strong and healthy bond with my therapist. What probably nobody knows is that in many ways, he too works unconventionally with me, crosses many of the so-called sacred therapeutic boundaries, and has allowed our relationship to involve a level of attachment which I know, for a fact, is quite unlike that which he typically establishes with clients, but is what he, and I (once I'd developed the insight to recognize it) came to understand was what I needed.

I think you noted something very profound Pencil when you said that your realisation that you had been allowed special access to your T (her having told her husband you could call her any time) actually ensured that you treasured and respected that access - and this is the paradox Springer referred to I suppose. And I think it's true. For some people, those with the insight and self awareness to understand, I do think that special trust and access to the relationship can be both the carrot that lures us into it, and the bind that keep us there, and the boundary, albeit a modified one, which ensures that we respect that level of attachment. Yes, it's a risk on the part of the therapist, one that requires careful judgment of character and no doubt some level of conscious decision about the consequences and likely outcomes of giving special consideration to certain clients, but I know that for me, knowing that I can contact my therapist outside of hours, knowing that he can and will, on occasions, help me with things in life quite unrelated to therapy specifically, knowing that he is willing to discuss his own life and family with me, knowing that I can, if need be, contact him when he is on holidays... knowing all of those things has taught me more about the reciprocal respect of relationships than anything else ever could have.

I know that what we have is unconventional, controversial and very, very special. I treasure it, and feel almost fiercely protective of it, and am, if anything, overly concerned about disrespecting or abusing that special level of relationship to such an extent that I am very very unlikely to ever do it.

I knew nothing whatsoever about human relationships until I started working with him. I know he knew that, figured it out long before I did. I know he also knew that it would take me a long time to tell him anything, and that the only way there was to spend time with me - much the same way you have to spend quiet neutral time with a frightened abused animal before it will let you touch it. So that's what we did a lot in the beginning, and still sometimes now, just... talked, about life, about work, about his family, about... anything. I had nobody in my life to talk to, and so he more or les became that person. Yes, it took up lots of time. No, it wouldn't have met any ABC definition of therapy. But it's how he won me over, how he built that bridge, and how he made sure it was strong. It's some of the best therapy I'll ever do... and we both know it.

I do believe in boundaries, and I know they're there for a reason, however you define them. But like everything in therapy, they must be flexible, and built on a combination of the individual needs of client and therapist. A truly good therapist will know that, and will act accordingly, and I am blessed to have one who has done that.

Sorry, this post is nowhere near as articulate as I'd wanted, struggling to explain all of this, but I had to respond, as I acknowledge that this is a critical yet controversial perspective that needed its place in this thread.

Maddog

 

[Pencil]

Maddog, thank you for posting. I've been acutely aware of the importance of your relationship with your T, and for some reason I always get a sense of calm, almost time slowed down just a fraction when you talk about him. Can't explain it. Perhaps you slow down to really think and to articulate things carefully when you do speak about him. But on this end I get the impression that things happen between you two in a dreamy way :D

To add something about the issue of boundaries. Boundaries ARE important, but in ALL relationships, not just in therapy. And what my first T did, and yours as well, was to teach me about everyday, normal boundaries. I think it happens often in therapy that the boundary issue is such an ISSUE that people easily think that therapeutic boundaries are somehow special, or sacred, or something, while they don't generally think about the boundaries we automatically have in each and every relationship with others. And this is why the emphasis on therapeutic boundaries annoys me at times.

Therapy is, by nature, a very odd activity, and the boundaries there are different. I'm not currently seeing 'my' T, but I'm seeing the school counselor as my very sick sister involved the school recently (this is a massive issue on its own). The relationship with the counselor is different, as I am not in therapy with her and because she is not a psychologist. What I find fascinating is that SHE crosses MY boundaries. As I need her to think I am the most together person this side of the equator, I can't tell her that I can't tolerate physical contact. And so we end every session with a friendly hug. Springer and Abstract know about my massive, massive issue with this, and I can't explain it easily. So I have to steel myself for the damn hug that is foisted upon me. I don't quite know how to make the point I'm trying to make :banghead: I guess what I'm trying to illustrate is that although 'therapeutic boundaries' are in place even with the counselor, and those are considered somehow sacrosanct, my 'ordinary' boundaries are somehow on a lower level on the hierarchy of boundaries.

To get back to attachment: What you say in your post, about the slow process of building the relationship, once again stresses the central place the relationship occupies in good, effective, life saving, life enhancing, life changing therapy. And that this is required with some clients, and not a set of skills or tools.

Maddog, can you imagine your life without your T?

 

['91 Girl]

Do you also find it easier to open up when she is not sitting across from you, looking at you?

Hey! I figured out how to quote people on my phone!

Anyway, to answer you question: YES!!!! Very much so. I can hardly handle opening up or talking about deeper things with her physically present. It makes me extremely anxious and overwhelms me quickly. It's really not an effective way to communicate with me, no matter who you are. I have this struggle with everyone, like I think too slowly and carefully for conversation. Or I speak too quickly and say stupid things. I have trouble in all social settings. And when you add in the fact that these are DEEP things...I become a partial mute. I can barely think anything, let alone turn it into intelligible sentences.

I think you noted something very profound Pencil when you said that your realisation that you had been allowed special access to your T (her having told her husband you could call her any time) actually ensured that you treasured and respected that access - and this is the paradox Springer referred to I suppose. And I think it's true. For some people, those with the insight and self awareness to understand, I do think that special trust and access to the relationship can be both the carrot that lures us into it, and the bind that keep us there, and the boundary, albeit a modified one, which ensures that we respect that level of attachment.

Maddog, I so agree with this. I am terrified of overstepping that boundary. I don't want to lose that special access, and so I am very careful with it. It keeps itself in check because I value it so much. I keep thinking that at any point, my T is going to decide I have overstepped, but I guess I haven't because she keeps encouraging me to contact her outside of sessions. So I'm doing something right. I think if I tried to abuse that or something, the rules would be changed very quickly.

To add something about the issue of boundaries. Boundaries ARE important, but in ALL relationships, not just in therapy.

Totally. I don't have the same boundaries with my friend that I do with my mom, nor are either of them the same as with a boyfriend if I had one. The same applies to therapy. I know why I'm there. I know what the goals are. I know the boundaries are there to facilitate those goals, and if they get in the way, they can be set aside. They can both protect the therapeutic relationship if in place correctly and yet destroy it if not used correctly. It's not a textbook answer; it's a case by case basis. Pencil, my T also has told her husband at least a little in terms of working with me, and I am glad for it. I feel like its more "allowed" and accepted that way.

And I love and completely agree with your last paragraph.

 

[Abstract]

Hi Pencil!

Actually I like the word "irk". :happy:;)

I just wanted to straighten something out actually. It's important to remember that I what I said was in context of and directly related to not wanting to take steps to self care because then it means that we have to be adult.

waiting for a therapist to save us

I think it's possible that you might have seen me as saying that relying on a therapist in any way and a therapist saving us in any way is not healthy. There is a huge difference between accepting help from a therapist and working with that in a responsible way and actually regressing and not doing anything so that the therapist is "saving" us in a dynamic that is disempowering. As I said the difference is subtle but important.

A good therapist will be able to detect when that starts happening and take measures to contain it. And then for many people that is a constant legitimate problem for them throughout and the wrong reaction by the therapist to that can keep them very ill. I think it's normal for all of us to have those feelings at times, briefly and yet to mostly be OK with still making an effort to do our part regardless.But for others that isn't possible and can lead to disaster if the therapist has not taken proper steps or is caught up in their own need to be needed.

And so I think boundaries are relative and so are a lack of boundaries. And a lot of that depends on the people inviolved and curcumstances.

As I said my reason for feeling that way is very much influenced by the stories of others that I know.

listening to others for me to change my mind.

I also so do believe that therapist do save our lives and in many respects that is their job! When we do our part to meet that and help that process, and even when we don't. Therapy and therapists have definitely saved my life many a time and I have zero doubt that I would not be here without. I shiver to even imagine what would have happened to me without it.

MD,
This may well hit on a few sore points for you as I know you have been struggling with your feelings about your relationship with your therapist.

I don't know if this helps or not but I have never once at any time thought that there were not correct boundaries or that your relationship could be damaging in any way at all. In fact I have thought that it sounds wonderful. That he intuitively knew what you needed and was able to respond to that. And that I could see that you have great difficulty asking for help and allowing yourself to receive it. I suspect it has developed over time too.

It as also occurred to me that you do have a lot of healthy boundaries in your relationship. If you were not able to respect them or were pushing them he may have had to respond differently to you for your own well-being. As we all need to be able to detect and respect others boundaries in life to be functional and have healthy relationships. You seem super conscious of respecting his space and his feelings and life and I believe that is hugely relevant when it comes to what is right for him to set in place.

And when something isn't helpful to you that he says or does it seems to me that you are able to own your part in that and therefore hold it's affect on your relationship until you talk it through with him rather than labelling him "bad" without the possibility of resolving it. I imagine it feels shattering (taking my own reactions as a guide) but regardless you hold that space.

I actually don't think there is anything "wrong" from anything that you have discussed. It certainly does not go against what I would consider healthy therapy.

I guess what I'm trying to illustrate is that although 'therapeutic boundaries' are in place even with the counsellor, and those are considered somehow sacrosanct, my 'ordinary' boundaries are somehow on a lower level on the hierarchy of boundaries.

Pencil,
You boundaries are really important! It is not one way only and should never be and when it comes to your boundaries as a client it is terribly important that a therapist takes your personal feelings and story into consideration. Even if you are not directly the client in a sense.

Really she should not be initiating physical contact without checking if it is Ok with you. And I hope you manage to tell her as it is great practice sharing with others what is important to us as unless we speak they do not know.

And that is why therapy and all relationships are a dance that involves both parties and not a set formula or something we can always expect others to read our minds with. It involves two unique people with unique inner worlds.

I guess what I'm trying to illustrate is that although 'therapeutic boundaries' are in place even with the counselor, and those are considered somehow sacrosanct, my 'ordinary' boundaries are somehow on a lower level on the hierarchy of boundaries.

DBT o

I would disagree about this though as dialectical behaviour therapy has been specifically developed to help those who suffer from severe abandonment issues and self hatred and struggle verbalising asking for help rather than through actions. I am not assuming it would help with every single person but just pointing out that it is one of the main ways of dealing with that particular issue.

Its also important to realise that DBT is also usually done at the same time as talk therapy that gives a different type of support. Actually learning skills can be an important part of making life better.

Asking you to clarify was not easy for me.

So impressed you did it!:tup: It is so important to be able to do that I have found. For me I always assumed I was wrong and said nothing but that actually kept me very stuck.

It's brave to take steps outside your comfort zone.

I missed out a lot and have not been able to keep up and read everything here either so excuse if I am repeating something or missed something important.

 

[Abstract]

be adult.

Too late to edit so just wanted to clarify that what I meant is "be adult when needed". Child states are perfectly good and important in certain situations and normal for us to deal with when it comes to trauma.

 

[maddog]

Thank you all for receiving my post so well... I actually was very anxious about sending it, as I appear to be regarding everything to do with my relationship with my therapist right now... and in regard to relationships in general...

I fear I mightn't really deserve your compliment, Abstract, about my ability to own my feelings and reactions in our relationship... I think I might have regressed on that score in the past few days, which is sad... too sad for words almost. I am trying to, but that attachment feels bruised and in jeopardy right now, and it's been a long long time since I found myself stuck in this place.

No Pencil, I can't imagine my life without him... which both comforts and frightens me, depending on where I'm at and what's going on with us. I mean, heck, I devoted an entire thread to my angst about my relationship with him... a thread i for some reason can't bring myself to revisit at the moment, much as I feel I want to.

Wish I had energy to say more right now, but energy is in short supply right now.

MD

 

[Pencil]

Hi MD

Yes, I read that thread, and couldn't respond, as I was affected by it. That's why I went over to your diary, and made the comment about not finding the words or the tone.

which both comforts and frightens me

I gather this is par for the course for some people, or for people with specific issues. I'm not even in therapy but the therapist assures me regularly that she won't disappear. Without that reassurance I start spinning. At this point I'm struggling to stay attached to her even in her absence. It may sound nonsensical, but just staying attached to her, and not fighting it, is difficult enough for me at the moment. If I ever return to therapy, her presence will make it much harder.

I appear to be regarding everything to do with my relationship with my therapist right now... and in regard to relationships in general...

Ditto. This thread is about attachment issues, after all :)

I know you're going through a difficult time. I hope things work out. (I'm not good at conveying this sort of thing :( )

 

[Pencil]

I know vacillate when it comes to the therapist - I either think she's wonderful, or I want to run.

But I'm beginning to think that we are perhaps not a good fit. I don't think attachment should always be such a drama. As Springer pointed out, attachment happens while other processes are going on. One can't actively attach for the sake of attachment. Arrrgghg. This is difficult.

 

[Pencil]

Perhaps she is also teflon coated.

 

[Hashi]

when something isn't helpful to you that he says or does it seems to me that you are able to own your part in that and therefore hold it's affect on your relationship until you talk it through with him rather than labelling him "bad" without the possibility of resolving it.

Abstract, about my ability to own my feelings and reactions in our relationship... I think I might have regressed on that score in the past few days, which is sad... too sad for words almost. I am trying to, but that attachment feels bruised and in jeopardy right now, and it's been a long long time since I found myself stuck in this place.

Maddog, thank you for saying that. Obviously, I'm not at all glad for you that you're in that place, but your honesty about it has helped me because I'm feeling my attachment to my therapist (T) is quite shaky right now.

I'm tentatively putting my head inside the door of this thread because I'm thinking about this a lot. My T and I are not the best of friends at the moment - really poor communication both ways at our last session about an issue in the relationship that's upsetting me. I left last session snarling about something she said to me while I was leaving, which I now think she meant to be conciliatory and validating, but which infuriated me with it's lack of understanding. Oh dear.

Now I'm terrified she's going to tell me she can't help me, bye bye. But I'm also thinking, maybe she really can't help me and I need to say bye bye. Maybe I'm unhelpable and everyone will now write me off, including myself. I know that another possibility is that we can sort it out and continue, but my worry that maybe we can't almost makes me want to not think we can... which makes sense to me until I put it into words, and then it doesn't seem to.

It's not helped by this being connected to something I feel a huge amount of shame about. I know this makes me much too sensitive to anything she says, and unable (unwilling?) to express myself properly, but then I still think obectively that she has let me down with something.

I hate the idea of talking about it and sorting it out, because of the shame aspect. Which is now feeding into my jealous resentment of her as someone who is psychologically, financially and physically secure and doesn't have to deal with what I have to deal with, goes home to have a nice evening while I leave the only 50 minutes in my week that ever feel really safe (usually), blah blah blah. Aaargh! I hate having to look at all this in myself. Can't say I'm looking forward to tomorrow's session...

Pencil, all this is very much in my mind when I read

But I'm beginning to think that we are perhaps not a good fit. I don't think attachment should always be such a drama.

Maybe you and your therapist aren't a good fit. I have no idea, so I'm not suggesting you are or you aren't. It's just making me think how hard it is to know sometimes, when there are so many other things going on in the relationship.

I've found attachment happens bit by bit, as a therapist shows themselves to be consistently reliable and safe, and I gradually let my guard down. I agree with you, you can't spend all your time in therapy on attachment itself, it's something that has to be developed while working on other things, as well as through exploring the relationship and addressing particular issues with that.

If something too challenging comes up in the relationship before attachment has really built up, how can we know whether it's not the right therapist or it's an issue to work through?

This thing could have happened with my therapist before I had come to trust her and depend on her so much, in which case I'd have probably stopped right there. I do think she's a good fit, and I do think - unfortunately - that this is an issue on my part that I need to work through, but I might not have thought so at that point. I've still been tempted to walk away, but I've talked myself out of that now.

This might not be relevant to your situation, or helpful. It's just a thought.

In my case, my attachment seems to be velcro. I can hook firmly into the relationship, but lift one of the corners and I could easily grab it, rip off the whole thing and go. Part of me always wants to run. Maybe I need to know that I can, in order not to.

 

[Pencil]

Hashi

Maddog, thank you for saying that. Obviously, I'm not at all glad for you that you're in that place, but your honesty about it has helped me because I'm feeling

From that opening, right down to the last paragraph, you state, say and describe various things I would have liked to have expressed exactly like that over a period of time. I'm beginning to think there is a kind of 'attachment problem model'. Your post described virtually all the aspects of my problems with the T.

In my case I think the problem happened too soon, immediately after the December break, and took too long to be resolved. I know the emotional issue (for those following the saga:D ) is complicated by finances, but the finances are not extraneous to the problem. Let me explain (As the 'snarling' and resentment coincided with my financial obstacle, the two are linked, but in a more complicated way): I was upset about an issue that is also shameful to me. In addition to that I felt that she was more focused on the financial problem and how it was affecting her, without showing any interest in how it was affecting me.

We have been emailing about the latter issue and that is now resolved. But in the mean time I have been able to hide behind the financial issue: I can't attend therapy sessions because I can't afford it - but that has simply given me a very convenient reason NOT to attend. The reality is I found going for sessions too threatening, because I had no idea how the issues would have been resolved, if they would indeed have been resolved, and how I would have managed to get myself out of that chair and out the door and all the way home if at any point I felt /she felt / it became clear that it could not be resolved. So my financial problem has been a relief in a way - it took the matter of staying / going out of my hands - I don't have to make a decision, and by NOT making the decision to terminate, I can NOT attend and yet stay in contact with her.

This might not be relevant to your situation, or helpful. It's just a thought.

This is both relevant and helpful. But I think it also contains something important in terms of your situation: You do have a solid and strong attachment, you have a solid foundation.

but my worry that maybe we can't almost makes me want to not think we can... which makes sense to me until I put it into words, and then it doesn't seem to.

It makes sense to me, I do this type of thing too - and then I start feeling desperately trapped.

but then I still think obectively that she has let me down with something.

This was exactly what I felt. But, although it took time, the T really put effort and time into turning that around.

I really hope you will post again after your session. And I hope with all my heart that you (the two of you) will be able to turn this around, the 'repair' thing being what good therapy is ultimately hinged on.