Vulnerability

[Philippa]

But I was pointing out on the post that there is a process, and for me it involves learning to differntiate actual danger and good fear, and imagined danger with unhealthy fear. Because I struggle with this, this is where I am likely to find healing. Therefore, Brown offers advice that would be inappropriate for me.

Ah yes, I can totally understand that, and how it wouldn't be useful to you. That's a lot to work through, and I'd imagine it would get pretty confusing.

 

[Pencil]

But this part I do think has an element of insecurity behind it,

No doubt about that, and a good point.

And this makes me think that insecurity does indeed play a role in one's ability to allow oneself to be vulnerable. And this makes me think about Brene Brown again: Wouldn't it be enormously helpful if she starts off with all the qualifiers and provisos e.g. "One can entertain the notion of vulnerability once one is .... " This is what is so useful about Maslow's hierarchy. I think Brown talks about people who are at the level of self-actualization, people who really are evolved, or close to it, and need to or want to do it more consciously. And this is what I find missing in Brown - not so much a 'how to' but an explication of what happens naturally, in the way Maslow did it. Maslow did not provide us with a idea of how we 'should be' or 'should aspire to be' (which is what I read in Brown), but a 'this is what happens, whether you like it or not' i.e. 'if you have the self-esteem of a slug you can kiss self-actualisation goodbye, sorry to tell you', but, 'if your abc needs are fulfilled you will spontaneously / naturally / instinctively aspire to def needs, and if they are fulfilled you will ...'

So, I wonder if Brene Brown is not talking about aspects of self-actualization, i.e. evolved, secure, happily housed and fed individuals, i.e. those whose lower 'deficiency' levels are satisfied. And this makes me wonder if it would not be more useful to go back to Maslow. (Btw, I honestly think Maslow is hugely over quoted in training material, and the real content of his work hugely underrated.)

I've said all along that I have no quarrel with Brown, but there is a ... vacuum, and I suspect Maslow can fill that vacuum.

 

[The Albatross]

Not particularly up for giving a synopsis of her material, but I will collect my thoughts and put together something after work this evening (short break right now between shifts) and try to post something sometime tomorrow. Also with the proviso that it is my own experience and is not open for critique. If it helps great, if not just disregard it please.

Yes there is an amount of insecurity at writing about my own personal method of living and holding it up for examination. Yes, I struggle with vulnerability and because I do you can see why her material would be a good fit for me. I can be vulnerable here on the forum, with clients but not with the people I am most intimate with both of whom I have betrayal issues with (spouse and mother).

I was asked a question and complied. I gave my view point, and yes I am very rigid with myself. I give little quarter to fear and anxiety. When the bell rights I come out of my corner and I participate. Brown's "yellow brick road" is a belief system. She has a spiritual/faith based system as do I, however it is not necessary to get some benefit if personal responsibility, action, accepting a finite uncomfortableness, and willingness to take risks are applied to daily life.

As far as: "Am I imagining things or is there a one-upmanship on the board in terms of where people are in recovery?" I have worked long and hard to get to this point. 14 years now and counting. You are free to perceive as you like and I am under no obligation to dissuade.

Daily check in is part of my management, so is journaling and self examination. Peer support, and having a "seat at the table or recovery" is as well. In AA all experience is valid, because if you're sitting at the table, you are recovering. If you're not at the table, you can be in jail, wet brain, or dead. When I came here I had suicidal thoughts and impulses. I was "high risk" for suicide. I also have not been able to deal with one final area in my life. My sexual dysfunction. I'm going to need my peers for that.

I have seen too many times, people break away from their support only to crash and burn. I am what I am, I write what I write, I think as I think. I am not for everybody and that is fine by me. I am though recovering, and working through my issues, and like I shared before I put together the material... if it helps great. If not just disregard it please. That is a version of AA's, "take what you need and leave the rest."

 

[Pencil]

could be different

@Hashi I've thought about this ... and I'm not sure. I know that I sometimes post something and a few responses (minority) have made me regret having been ... open or having made myself vulnerable. But I also know that it might be that I'm not in therapy, and perhaps I have different expectations, but then again, perhaps not. So the short answer to your question is that I'm not sure. :clown:

 

[Hashi]

'if you have the self-esteem of a slug you can kiss self-actualisation goodbye,

And yet, one of The Albatross's points from Brene Brown:

COMMITTING/COMMITMENT: Committing to everything I do. Even the small stuff, like deciding to eat lunch at 12.30, not 1.30. Or heading out the door for my morning run at 7 and not 9. Or whatever.
Because every time I commit, it builds up my deliberate muscle. Even if the decision might not be ideal, I’m practicing committing.

is exactly what I've heard elsewhere about developing self-esteem (Caroline Myss). Can the two be developed alongside each other?

I'm not sure I'm convinced it's a Maslow-type hierarchy. I see connections, definitely. But my feeling is that it's more of a big splodge, all mixed up together. Two steps forward with one thing, one step forward with another, and so on.

You can know whether you have sufficient food and shelter, because otherwise you have deficiency diseases and get wet when it rains. But how do you measure self-esteem? How do you take into account how much it can fluctuate from one day to the next, one situation to the next? What's "enough", and how would you know?

In fact, personally I don't relate to linking vulnerability with self esteem anyway. For me it's all about safety, and for me safety is not to do with fears of possible rejection, abandonment, aloneness or what others think of me. I have little concern about those things.

My concern about safety, and therefore vulnerability, is being overpowered. Either physically (more people, stronger people) or psychically (psychic crisis/attack). I think this is clearly related to my particular traumas and my relationship with dissociation and amnesia. As well as my underlying personality.

In my case, it isn't an idea that vulnerability = weakness. I have an ingrained belief that vulnerability = stupid. It's not that it would put me at risk of abuse or being emotionally hurt sooner or later, it's that I feel I would be opening myself to immediate violent attack. Vulnerability = I might as well walk down the street with a sign saying, "Only little me here, come and get me". And I might as well walk through the underworld with the same sign.

 

[Tinyflame]

I really relate to @Meadowsweet 's post #72. I think BB may be taking it for granted that the 'natural' or smaller points or abilities are put in to practise (such as accurate 'gut' recognition, healthy assertiveness etc). I think I personally need other stuff elaborated on to apply some of it. I mean I have to work on other things, how trauma mixes it up, if that makes sense. Just as @Meadowsweet said in post #83, and as @Philippa and @Hashi said as well.

I think encouraging others' vulnerability here would mean letting everyone express themself without necessarily agreeing or disagreeing, to give them the environment to express their truth, or what they really fear or think.

 

[Survivor2Thriver]

My concern about safety, and therefore vulnerability, is being overpowered. Either physically (more people, stronger people) or psychically (psychic crisis/attack). I think this is clearly related to my particular traumas and my relationship with dissociation and amnesia. As well as my underlying personality.
In my case, it isn't an idea that vulnerability = weakness. I have an ingrained belief that vulnerability = stupid. It's not that it would put me at risk of abuse or being emotionally hurt sooner or later, it's that I feel I would be opening myself to immediate violent attack. Vulnerability = I might as well walk down the street with a sign saying, "Only little me here, come and get me". And I might as well walk through the underworld with the same sign.

Exactly.

 

[Survivor2Thriver]

Uh, no I don't understand. All people need good boundaries.

Yes they do. That's what I'm trying to say. They should have their own. If I feel like I have to point mine out or show them theirs....what the hell good is that? Something is wrong with them.

 

[Survivor2Thriver]

Can you see how Browns words are completely impractical to me? Perhaps if you had experienced my life, rather than yours, you might have a different view of Brown. My point is, that, if it works for you, great, but the soap box seems inappropriate because recovery needs to recognise the thinking styles and emotional f*cked up-ness that the individual needs to recover from.

Exactly. BB dismisses our every attempt to face our fears and then tries to tell us something is wrong with us. That is what happens when people have shallow thinking styles.

So recovery for me has meant, and means accepting that some situations are dangerous. And to do that means finding the connection to my emotions and fears, and to work on integrating those feelings with trauma. That is a process, and the differentiation between a situation that requires fear to keep you safe, and the imagined fear of the mind has to be made in order to keep an individual safe. If a person hasn't done this work, then advice to let go of fear and do it anyway, is not appropriate for that person.

Yes,it's all about safety. :)

 

[Survivor2Thriver]

But I was pointing out on the post that there is a process, and for me it involves learning to differntiate actual danger and good fear, and imagined danger with unhealthy fear. Because I struggle with this, this is where I am likely to find healing. Therefore, Brown offers advice that would be inappropriate for me. It is a coping mechanism to 'normalise' everything and dissociate from the thoughts and feelings that might otherwise protect me.

Thank you! You understand! :)

 

[The Albatross]

Jesus, have any of you other than Philippa read her material at all? How you go from her material to what you are discussing is beyond me.

 

[Survivor2Thriver]

I want to thank everyone for their thoughtful posts. As a rule I like to keep it short. However,I feel a long rambling post coming on. LOL I'll be back after my PTS brain settles down.[DOUBLEPOST=1399226591,1399226498][/DOUBLEPOST]

. I officially bow out and am off the thread. So much for a discussion of any import.

Thank you.