Vulnerability

[Meadowsweet]

@Philippa , I would call what you are speaking of as guilt rather than shame. To me, shame is different, I associate it to a sense of horror too big to comprehend that becomes like a dark corner that nobody must enter. Shame is like the guardian of that corner - the feeling that absolutely nobody must go there.

People can guilt-trip and demoralize others self worth and people can feel utterly useless and worth nothing. I know that those feelings are damaging in themselves. But shame is another thing all together, in the way that I understand it.

 

[Pencil]

recovery needs to recognise the thinking styles and emotional f*cked up-ness that the individual needs to recover from.

Yes, and I think it also has a lot to do with where we are in the healing process. It always helps to compare it to physical injury. If you're still in hospital with an infected wound a broken leg, exercise could be lethal. This is when vulnerability means the germs could finish you off. Once the wound and bone have healed and the infection has been killed, exercise is imperative. I always get VERY antsy when I see survivors of 'train smashes' who are fully recovered advocate healthy exercise to those recently out of the operating theatre. It perpetuates the shame, the guilt, the feelings of worthlessness.

Context is another important factor. Jogging in a leafy suburb is beautiful. Jogging in a dangerous neighbourhood is sheer suicidal stupidity.

Am I imagining things or is there a one-upmanship on the board in terms of where people are in recovery?

 

[Philippa]

@PhilippaPeople can guilt-trip and demoralize others self worth and people can feel utterly useless and worth nothing. I know that those feelings are damaging in themselves. But shame is another thing all together, in the way that I understand it.

That's a good point.

Are we talking about toxic shame here, or regular shame? Shame in the sense you describe is, as far as I have read and understood it to mean that the person themselves is so 'bad' and horrible and ugly that they fear people seeing that part of them, as though they are a demon.

Regular shame is being treated as though you've done something very wrong, but you aren't 'wrong' or 'bad'.

I guess it can get a bit confusing at that point, what is shame and what is guilt.

 

[Hashi]

What about practical psychology and behavior can be straightforward?

An example would be Dr Jeffrey Schwartz's very straightforward - and to me extremely helpful - writing about Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.

You have done a great job of extracting key points from a large amount of work. Thank you.

 

[Hashi]

Am I imagining things or is there a one-upmanship on the board in terms of where people are in recovery?

For what it's worth, I don't see this. If it includes me then obviously I really don't see it! :oops:

I think if you feel someone is being unfair or acting in a superior way, it's best to either address a comment to them about it or let it go. I understood the general point that you made above this comment, I think it's a good point. I have to say I don't think following with an indirect comment about some members is helpful.

I think it's also about different approaches.

 

[Philippa]

At the time that I realised that I needed to stop running and to face my fears, a man tried to kill me. So with my experience, it is more sensible to look at how my attitude to facing fear puts me in danger.

I know this was directed at the Albatross. I'm just wondering if perhaps there is a misunderstanding in the meaning of what "stop running and face your fears" means to you and what it means to the Albatross and other who find help in BB's work?

To me, running from our problems and facing our fears, of say, success, or failure, or being judged by friends or people we value, or any number of things that people can fear is not the same as running from a dangerous person who you fear and has intention to hurt you. Obviously getting as far away from someone like that is advisable and not stopping to face your fear of being hurt by him. That's the sort of fear you want to always listen to and act on.
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Am I imagining things or is there a one-upmanship on the board in terms of where people are in recovery?

I don't think that is the case, though it could very well be interpreted that way with people who are at different stages of recovery.

I initially thought this was a thread to validate how much more 'deep' trauma survivors are to brene brown and people who find her ideas helpful...but turns out, not so much.

 

[Pencil]

I don't think following with an indirect comment about particular members is helpful.

Acknowledged.

Just want to add that it is not about this thread in particular, or exclusively. I've noticed it on other threads during the past year.

And to say something direct about this: It flies in the face of 'vulnerability' - Brene Brown's definition, my definition, the OED definition - if there are times I shy away from saying something for fear of reactions. Are we allowing each other vulnerability? Is this thread encouraging vulnerability?

I'm not being difficult - I'm honestly asking myself these questions. I'm asking myself if the direction of this thread / forum is not an illustration of why some members are uncomfortable with the notion of vulnerability. With that I'm not saying the thread / forum is out of order; I'm saying that vulnerability is a very problematic concept without the strength of character, inner security, etc to back it up.

 

[Pencil]

If it includes me then obviously I really don't see it!

Just to be clear: No, I have never experienced it in your posts.

 

[Meadowsweet]

Am I imagining things or is there a one-upmanship on the board in terms of where people are in recovery?

I liked your post, it made a lot of sense. But this part I do think has an element of insecurity behind it, rather than being an actual fact. The thing with PTSD, is that there are some days worse than others for all of us.

Shame in the sense you describe is, as far as I have read and understood it to mean that the person themselves is so 'bad' and horrible and ugly that they fear people seeing that part of them, as though they are a demon.
Regular shame is being treated as though you've done something very wrong, but you aren't 'wrong' or 'bad'.

The top one describes what I understand as shame. However, I think that sense of shame is touched and re-affirmed when we feel we've got something wrong.

 

[Philippa]

The top one describes what I understand as shame. However, I think that sense of shame is touched and re-affirmed when we feel we've got something wrong.

I agree with you here. Perhaps toxic shame can become quite mixed up with regular shame for people who have experienced the really toxic variety that make them feel like there is something deeply wrong with them. That they ARE the problem, not just that their behaviour was problematic.

Maybe it is like grieving. When something else happens that causes grief, it can open up old scar tissue from past griefs and wounds...and the person is forced to relive them as well as the current situation?[DOUBLEPOST=1399199611,1399199372][/DOUBLEPOST]I think that when different people are at different stages of their recovery, and some are doing better than others, it can come across as feeling like that is being thrown in the other persons face...and that can be unpleasant. I don't think it means there is a deliberate competition happening though. Just a natural outcome of people being at different places.

I've often wondered if my presence on this forum is helpful to people who are struggling a lot, even though I've had some people value me for the hope I give them that they can reach a more high functional place eventually, with hard work.

I can certainly see how it would come across as rubbing it in your nose, for others though, even if that is not my intent. I don't really have any control over how people take me though...that's up to them. And yes, I definitely do still have my down days.

 

[Meadowsweet]

I know this was directed at the Albatross. I'm just wondering if perhaps there is a misunderstanding in the meaning of what "stop running and face your fears" means to you and what it means to the Albatross and other who find help in BB's work?

There's not a misunderstanding. I realise that Brown isn't suggesting anyone faces dangerous situations.

But I was pointing out on the post that there is a process, and for me it involves learning to differntiate actual danger and good fear, and imagined danger with unhealthy fear. Because I struggle with this, this is where I am likely to find healing. Therefore, Brown offers advice that would be inappropriate for me. It is a coping mechanism to 'normalise' everything and dissociate from the thoughts and feelings that might otherwise protect me.

For somebody that uses other coping mechanisms, it it good advice.

My point to Albatross was that, it's great when it suits, but it is useful to recognise that what works for one doesn't work for an other, because their issues are different.

 

[Hashi]

I'm asking myself if the direction of this thread / forum is not an illustration of why some members are uncomfortable with the notion of vulnerability.

I think that's a tricky one because the forum is for a number of purposes and a large number of people with different issues and approaches.

What do you feel could be different in order to encourage vulnerability, and still within the scope/limitations of the forum?