News The God Debate

[Deleted member 1860]

@Muzikluvr,
PLEASE JUST STOP. You put words into everyone's mouth as to what they believe so that you can have an argument. You have NO idea what we believe, yet you state it VERY matter of factly so that you can argue against it! You're hell bent on disproving God. Well go on with your bad self. Have a party. Whatever makes you feel better at the end of the day. But DON'T you DARE tell us what we do and do not believe! You assume that when someone say's they are Christian that they believe the bible word for word. Uhm, nope. Not true. If you're going to argue something, it helps to know a little bit about what you're arguing, and to avoid making sweeping generalizations.

 

[Justmehere]

For what it is worth, I think you are asking absolutely excellent questions @Muzikluvr! I think this is a great discussion.

I also will be upfront about where I come from. When I first saw the quote on the chat room and here, I was like oh, here we go again, beating up religion and lumping a huge group of people into one bad lump... However, I was wrong. (it happens quite often! ;) ) I am impressed by the discussion here.

I don't consider myself to be religious. I don't think religion is all bad, nor is it all good.

I do believe there is a God and I even believe in Jesus. I'm conflicted, very deeply, about what some call Christianity and I'm very conflicted about the church.

The Bible itself is filled with people questioning God, even wrestling with God, and lots of doubts, over and over again. From Genesis where Jacob wrestled with God to Psalms where David cried out questions accusing in tone to God, to Thomas and even Jesus in the New Testament, the Bible does not shy away from including many people who deeply questioned God and were considered people of great faith by the very same people who wrote the Bible. Whatever you want to believe about the bible being true or not, it is the only major founding religious text that includes such questioning and crying out to God, and holds it up as a GOOD thing. It doesn't answer all of them (I find this deeply frustrating) but it includes them all the same.

But religious folks? You are right, many of them do not welcome questioning. Some people get into religion because they are insecure and scared. They want a path that clears up all the uncertainties of life. Some people get into religion because they want power, control, and they abuse it horribly. So so horribly. It is very devastating.

My own parents were atheist/agnostic, but my extended family is Buddhist, Jewish, Mormon, Hindu, Catholic. No joke. A lot of the more religious people in my family would also tell me they didn't believe there was a God, but that it's what they did because of tradition or "the right thing to do." I now live in an extremely religiously diverse community, and I hear the same things at times. It drives me nuts! Why do all of that without even believing in a real God? Seems like a look of garbage just to be accepted - but I think that is just how strong of a pull a sense of acceptance and belonging can be.

I had friends who joined a bona fide dangerous cult when I was in college. (I do not by any means use the world "cult" lightly.) I was recruited, but quickly rejected by them because I tend to just blurt things out, like, "um, I think this is screwed up..." I was dumbfounded to watch my friends be pulled in. They were scientists and some of the brightest people I know, but that drive and unresolved hurt they had made the acceptance that the cult offered seem so attractive that they overlooked the really dangerous crap that was going on.

And my own showing up and questioning of what this religious cult was doing was received very badly. Watching my friends be pulled into something so harmful has shaped me to this day.

I am very convinced religion isn't God. They are two different things.

I think my own beliefs most line up with what most would call Christianity, but I will completely agree that some churches are not very good at being like what's described in the Bible. They get so caught up on being right that they forget to love people... It's something I have publicly railed against and gotten really horrible treatment back for. I would die for my faith. I was in a country once where that was a possibility. I wouldn't die for the screwed up church though. I'm not saying that is good or bad or right or wrong. It's simply where I am at.

The harshest words Jesus had were for the religious elites of his day. He broke cultural norms to be with the people who were most looked down upon and the furthest from ever being accepted into religious circles. The religious folks who thought they had all the answers? He called them whitewashed tombs. They responded viciously to him, a man, from a city and class that was looked down on, who was questioning their religious authority and beliefs. The pattern exists to this day.

Pascal's wager is irrational, if you are Christian, according to the bible there are many choices you should be making in your life, not just believing Jesus is God incarnated as a human. Many Christian churches teach that simply by believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, you will be forgiven and welcomed into Heaven. But, that's not what the bible says about it...

IMO, Pascal's wager is the highest abomination to our society! Not only isn't it what religion intended, nor is it really a belief in God; but it is also an excuse not to progress in one's thinking about society and propel us to a more reasoned one.

I don't have all the answers to my own questions or the questions you are asking. Your questions made me think of Pascal's Wager and I was curious as to your thoughts. I will say this: Pascal was a scientist who was very into probabilities. Pascal's Wager was about what happens when we die. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by what religion intended in regards to Pascals Wager...?

Do you know what Pascal himself said about religion? “Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." - Pascal

Does that mean he threw out God and Jesus along with some of the screwed up things done in the name of religion? No. He wasn't an unthinking stupid guy either. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with him, but some of the other things he wrote included:
“People almost invariably arrive at their beliefs not on the basis of proof but on the basis of what they find attractive.”
"Mankind suffers from two excesses: to exclude reason, and to live by nothing but reason."
"There is enough light for those who only desire to see, and enough obscurity for those who have a contrary disposition."

Pascal's wrote in defense of the scientific method - something that is quite important to me and to science and reason of our day. His wager comes from mathematics. It simply proposes the idea that if there is no God, and we spend a life believing there is a God, then we lost some in life. If there is a God, but we spent life not believing in God, only to show up to eternity, then we have much more to lose. Pascal's Wager was a mathematical idea that is was better to believe in God based on the possible gains.

Possible gains in eternity - I don't think it's enough for me personally to believe in God. But I think it's a compelling perspective as to why many do believe in God.

In the middle of my own trauma, I once had a near death experience. Well technically, I died. I experienced something very profound and very real and not really explainable by anything I have yet to read. Some write these off as biochemical experiences. That doesn't fully explain it. Call me crazy, but I do believe there is life after death, and love beyond all words and human capacity to live out. I have experienced it - and I am very broken human being who does a pretty bad job myself at dealing with life or loving people.

*edited to fix a typo: to delete "Wager" where I meant just "Pascal."

 

[Muzikluvr]

(haha, again, pun intended)

Pray tell, what is it that you intend by your pun?

reached outside of myself (and every human connection I've ever had), and was able to tap into something that is well beyond what can be explained by humankind.

This is what I am trying to explain! :)

What is that? I thought it was a connection with Christ, but now I realize that what I learned from that experience contradicts the reality of Christianity. Who or what was filling me with spirituality? And, was it spirituality or was it delusion? Was it rejoicing in the Lord or was it psychosis induced euphoria? How can one tell the difference between delusion and spirituality when it comes from a place deep inside? How would we know if Abraham heard God tell him to kill his son, and an angel tell him not to? How can we believe that was real, and not delusional?

I was a believer, and I heard many answers to my prayers, but only those which suited my beliefs seemed attributable to God. When coincidence happened, I believed it was meant to be... it was my proof that God exists. When bad things happened, they were tests of my faith, they were opportunities to persevere.

I can't even comment on anything else you say about God and religion because your opinion is based on something that is so beyond my world of experience. There are assumptions made after assumptions and its just not something I wish to wade through and pick apart.

You don't need to wade through it all. I am asking questions. I am curious. I have reread my posts and seen many assumptions I've made. That is the joy of writing it down and rereading it. I get to see what is getting in the way of my ability to process the answers I'm looking for... of course, many of my questions are questions for others. I would like to hear what other people think.

SO SO VERY UNCOOL that the quote above chat was changed.

Can't we just put something benign there?

You may change it to whatever you like, simply double click on it and write your own message.

I have seen others call on their belief in God to help other people here... I am calling on my belief in rational, logical thought to help others here.

Why is it that, what I am asking about, what I am discussing, is unwelcome where someone else posting their belief in how religion saved them is considered peaceful, nonconfrontational? I find it highly confrontational. Why is it that the way I feel when people express their "loving religious" beliefs to me or to others is my problem... and the way you feel when I question it is also my problem?

I am not asking you to stop believing in God. I made clear in my title what you would find in here, and I welcome you to continue discussing it.

 

[The Albatross]

There is a perceptual problem with the quote by Steven Weinberg.
"Good people will do good things, evil people will do bad things, but it takes religion for good people to do bad things"

It is a proclivity for hedonism that causes good people to do bad things. Religion may be a guise in some cases, a mask certain people want to wear, but it is only a mask.

Please refrain from lumping Judeo-Christian with Muslim belief systems, they are not compatible. If you wish to learn more, comparative religion classes helped me a good deal.

I actually think that a belief system is one of the most important aspects of my life. If I am wrong what of it?[DOUBLEPOST=1400374797,1400374536][/DOUBLEPOST]The problem too, as I see it is that people can profess to be whatever they wish, but if their deeds and character are not in line with their holy books, they are nothing but hypocrites and liars. God hates liars.

 

[Muzikluvr]

You put words into everyone's mouth as to what they believe so that you can have an argument.

I don't believe I put words in anyone else's mouth... except maybe @Lucycat and for that I am very sorry!

Has anyone ever felt relieved that they don't have to believe in that malarky anymore? I mean, anyone besides me and @Lucycat ?

You assume that when someone say's they are Christian that they believe the bible word for word. Uhm, nope. Not true.

Actually, I assume that when someone says they're Christian they are referring to the apologetic Christianity that adapts to widely accepted social beliefs. In fact, it's one of my questions... why does the meaning of Christianity adapt, instead of dissolve?

If you're going to argue something, it helps to know a little bit about what you're arguing, and to avoid making sweeping generalizations.

Actually, a little bit is all I know... so. Yeah.

As for sweeping generalizations... I don't know. I'm trying to ask the questions that are on my mind. Feel free to ask those on your mind... in regards to God/religion (which I apparently use interchangeably).

 

[Justmehere]

Actually, I assume that when someone says they're Christian they are referring to the apologetic Christianity that adapts to widely accepted social beliefs. In fact, it's one of my questions... why does the meaning of Christianity adapt, instead of dissolve?

What do you mean? How does Christianity adapt? to what? By dissolve, do you mean cease to exist?

 

[Tinyflame]

Dear @Muzikluvr , I apologize as I can't comprehend all these posts, and am pressed for time, so it might not be worth very much.

I think 'society' is composed of individuals, and any individual can attempt to harm or abuse another with any justification they want, & unfortunately that occurs with or without religion or in the name of God. I don't know about 'Paschal' or Jung but I do know about Hitler & many others, personally & otherwise . I think it comes down to the basics of the problem: for example, child paedophiles (abusers) look for children (churches, sports, daycares, scouts etc- no wonder they are banned from being around schools, etc). Abusers seek to isolate, threaten, and continue. Some people are sadistic. Similarly, fanatics of any sort are just that- fanatics. Hopefully the majority of people have a healthy middle ground: to be open to what none of us knows, but most of all to treat others with love, respect, kindness, compassion & care. Sort of like on this forum, which does not even need people to have the same beliefs to help. We share the belief of care for each other.

I do not think religion 'makes' a person one way or another, & it certainly doesn't dictate all choices. Nor do I feel it limits society if it is legitimate. For example, I think one is a better lover if they are generous, values the other person, are respectful, and are not all-selfish. If religious beliefs foster that, great Similarly, charity- that is another word for 'love'- is or should be encouraged in most religious-belief-systems. Helping one another, and recognizing no one is excluded or less-than' I think is simply an accurate statement of fact, with or without religious beliefs. But if 'religion' gets people off their rear to help, well better that. Maybe that's something 'God' knows. I think people are more inclined to 'keep score', God not so much. But the issue becomes get people to 'want' to help others.

For myself, though I have always had a background in science, I find the complexity of everything is breath-taking. Wow, I say.

For me personally though, I have experienced so many beyond-belief things I couldn't 'not believe' if I tried, I would have to turn my mind & entire memory off. Most of all though, those things/ 'coincidences' etc, were small, gentler, tender, kinder, loving, respectful of me & my 'free choice'- and very very frequently exactly seemingly 'responses' (with the exact 'words') to my questions.

What I think may happen, is that people (individually) get boxed in on questions, but if God exists, we don't have the capacity to even know or define it/ 'Him'/'Her' even a smidgen. (Kind of like I would think, to the question "is 'God' 'male' or 'female' ?" the answer would be "yes"). I think God is unlimited, and firey, passionate, and all those things, anything but sterile or 'prudish'.. And I think we as people have a bit of that.

I have no conception of Heaven, but I heard a 4 year old who was dying say for example the night before they died that their (her) 'grandma' (who had died before) came to 'visit' and said "taste the clouds" (they tasted like lemon pudding-her favourite) as she went with her on a mini-tour.

I guess I have had such ordeals, such trauma, so many times I should be dead (all of that is hard to admit), were it not for 'feeling' God is with me (just my personal belief) , I wouldn't be here. But I think it has helped me to be a better person, or I wouldn't subscribe to it. When others seem to not have that understanding but call it religion, I carry on.

Every belief makes for a complete world. I think if 'God' wants someone to be an atheist or agnostic, He knows better, it's as it should be for them, even perhaps the Very Best, they can meet & help or understand others in a way I can't. And are they better than me, or accomplish more? Yes, very likely. But it's not because of religion that I accomplish less. In fact, to me, I'm thankful I believe God exists because perhaps He can bring something out of my limitations I cannot.

I think, too, of that saying, "before you think you have bad self-esteem, check to see first if you are not just surrounded by a**holes!" Similarly, 'God' & 'religion' is just another place or excuse (and a convenient one ) where people can hide or explain-away individual wrongs. 'Individuals' hurt & harm, or do good, I think. Follow your heart, live true to you, and welcome being surprised. Ask lots of questions (to God or otherwise). :)

Good questions! :)

 

[The Albatross]

English Standard Version:

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness

1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Matthew 7:15-20:
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Matthew 23:13-15:
“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.

2 Peter 2:1-3
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

2 Timothy 3:1-17
But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.

Not the clearest thinker tonight, but there is quite a lot on false people who proclaim to be religious.

 

[Tinyflame]

(And yes, for me, personally, "God" is "love", concrete love.)

 

[Muzikluvr]

Thank you @Justmehere ! That is a very compelling post!

How do you know Jesus existed? How do you know what is written about him is real? Why did they wait 20 years after his crucifixion to write it down? Why didn't anyone write about his resurrection right away? Why didn't the apostles keep journals of their exploits with Jesus while they were living them? Why are Matthew, Mark, Luke and John written by a variety of ghost writers? Why not just sign their real names to the document?

 

[The Albatross]

"What does it matter that you believe God is Love and I don't believe in God?" It doesn't except in my holy book I am advised to avoid you.

"You go to church and pretend that you believe God created the world in 7 days, God made Eve from Adam's rib, God is watching over us all, God is the Father, God sacrificed his only son to save us from the consequences of our sins... save us from God's judgment of our sins... why did he have his son killed for that? It matters that you support a religion that you don't fully believe because you send the message to children and adults alike, that it is real... when it's not."

Highly skewed perception here. Infants and toddlers of faith, athiests or agnostics ask questions as though they understand something they haven't even bothered to study?

How do you know it is not real? How do you know what the language of a book written two thousand years ago means if you haven't bothered to investigate.

That is, contempt prior to investigation and I think that would be reason enough to take the time to come to your own conclusions after a study of comparative world religions. Not before hand.

 

[Muzikluvr]

Thank you for posting bible verses @The Albatross I couldn't refute them if I wanted to, I wouldn't want to spend time finding their corresponding contradictions... but, perhaps I should.

I'm very glad that so many of you have found a strong belief in God that sees you through your troubled times. I'm sure you struggle, and persevere, and question, and find answers to put you back on track.

Thank you so much for not condescending to think that I have not been there, too.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by what religion intended in regards to Pascals Wager...?

That someone could live their life how they want, repent of their sins, believe in Jesus, and if there is a Heaven, be invited in. In this way, they have the best of both worlds. They aren't really doing justice to either religion or society.

What do you mean? How does Christianity adapt? to what? By dissolve, do you mean cease to exist?

Many churches have been outraged by homosexuality, in the 80's I remember Christians saying that AIDS was a God's punishment for their sexual perversion. Today, there are some Christian churches who allow homosexual ministers, some who are embracing same sex marriage.

By dissolve, I mean go into the history books along with Zeus and the others that we no longer believe in.

"What does it matter that you believe God is Love and I don't believe in God?" It doesn't except in my holy book I am advised to avoid you.

Do not let me sway you against the teachings of your holy book.