Expecting Sex (rant)

[maryiscontrary]

Interesting thread. From my standpoint, I would not be in a relationship where there was no/poor quality sex. And I am a woman.

 

[Caterpillar]

You're talking about supporters of someone with PTSD... and last time I looked, many a supporter living with someone with PTSD, develop their own symptoms of PTSD. So I actually disagree with you, because many a supporter are actually being victimised due to a change in their partner from PTSD. Secondary PTSD... ring a bell? Sex is surely one aspect of that which you have focused from their words, and loss of that is also an emotional disconnection, because sex is not just sex, it is also an emotional connection shared between two lovers.

This is all very, very true. I wouldn't say someone could get PTSD simply from having sex withheld, but the systematic emotional stress of being the supporter to someone with a serious mental illness absolutely can cause PTSD. That's what happened to me. Lack of sex is only a small part of it, but it can sometimes be the easiest part to point to and explain. After all, you're either having sex or you're not. It's not nebulous like other needs which are probably also going unfulfilled. It's concrete and simple.

There's a vibe across the mentally ill community that supporters don't get to have needs. When you demand something, be it sex or daily contact or the other person actually having energy to do things with you, you're a bad supporter who's not being understanding of the sufferer's problems. You're made to feel guilty for wanting normal things. It's not unusual for people to suggest that you need therapy for your "attachment issues" (because expecting your lover to actually respond to your text messages is so totally abnormal) or that you're pushy and controlling for wanting sex with your romantic partner. The message that you're a bad person for wanting normal things can eventually become as deeply ingrained as it is in any classic abuse victim. It lays a perfect foundation for secondary PTSD or secondary depression.

So, no, I'm not disgusted by men (or women... since women who want sex and aren't getting it actually exist too) who complain that their romantic partner never wants to have sex with them. They have a totally legitimate complaint. They don't deserve to be made out to be entitled assholes for having normal desires.

I've browsed the supporters section here and if there are a bunch of posts from men who think they're entitled to their partners' bodies at any time and in any way, they must be buried deeper than I can be bothered to search. What I mostly see are a whole lot of posts from good people who love their partners and don't understand why they're being denied the fulfillment of normal needs.

 

[maryiscontrary]

As I work through my CPTSD and severe codependency (as an aspie) my understanding of the nuts and bolts of a functional relationships of any kind have changed dramatically. If one partner minimizes or shuts down the needs of another, and there is no negotiating, coming to a meeting of the minds, it is my opinion the relationship is not healthy, and may have a limited shelf life.

I had terrible nightmares and flashbacks. I never asked my boyfriend to deal with him, though I was very touched by his concern and support. When he would have tantrums based on his issues, I would validate his feelings, and then leave. Too many times, and the relationship would have been over, cause of the stress. But he learned emotional regulation, cause he felt listened to, and I started feeling a safe place to heal. 2 very imperfect people, but the key is to listen and negotiate with each other.

 

[Meadowsweet]

There's a vibe across the mentally ill community that supporters don't get to have needs. When you demand something, be it sex or daily contact or the other person actually having energy to do things with you, you're a bad supporter who's not being understanding of the sufferer's problems. You're made to feel guilty for wanting normal things. It's not unusual for people to suggest that you need therapy for your "attachment issues" (because expecting your lover to actually respond to your text messages is so totally abnormal) or that you're pushy and controlling for wanting sex with your romantic partner.

There is exactly the same vibe across the menal health community, that having a mental disorder means that your needs aren't normal and should not exist. When you explain that it's not a problem with the other, but you need some time alone, you're a bad person who's not being understanding of the supporters problems. You're made to feel guilty for experiencing effects of abuse that you never asked for. It's not unusual for people to suggest that some quite 'normal' needs and preferences are due to previous abuse, and that they don't count and should be 'fixed' in therapy to suit the preference of a partner. Or that if you dare respond during a mutual argument, that you are showing signs of aggression, and that's a sign of mental illness.

The lack of understanding, the bias and prejudice works both ways. The difference being, is that having written a thread like this, I've automatically moved on to look at why I feel this way, and why I am effected by something that other people might be perfectly ok with. I am humble enough to not live my life blaming and finding fault in other people, instead I look for understanding, and I find compassion for other people.

Whether I am pointing out to somebody with PTSD that other people want to find their own responsibility for their well being, or pointing out to somebody that talks about toxic friendships, that the toxicity may be due to what it triggers within them, rather than what the other is doing, or point out to a supporter that they are an adult, and also have responsibility for dealing with their own feelings, rather than looking for blame and justification. I go on to other forums, where PTSD doesn't mean a thing, and I offer the same self-responsibility view of life that I have used to helpmy own healing.

The idea that the label of 'supporter' means that you are exempt from human error, isn't realistic. I respect anybody, whatever their condition, who is willing to look at their own reactions first. And I speak to supporters and people with PTSD about my own opinions about self responsibility.

I don't have respect for anybody, whatever they have been through, who can't be humble enough to accept that they aren't perfect, and be willing to address their own issues, rather than blame someone else. I don't care what label you stick on yourself.

I think I've lived with non-perfect people enough, and gone through that journey of looking at myself - not to blame myself - but to understand that situation I was in and what it was in me, that attracted me to it. So it is through experience of partners with a hell of a lot of issues that I am talking.

So, the attitudes of, 'if only you knew how hard it is to walk in my shoes' is nothing short of narrow thinking. If supporters could get over the them and us crap, and actually listen to some of the things that someone who has been through that has learned in their healing journey, then you might actually find a way to improve your situation. But with your defensiveness all blazing, you unwilling and unable to hear a bloody thing, however sensible, logical and well balanced the view is.

 

[Laura 2]

People can often have some fault in trauma, that isn't victim blaming, it is fact.

@anthony - may I check what you were meaning to convey here?

Do you mean that victims of events that cause trauma/PTSD have helped create their own suffering? Or did you mean that trauma/PTSD is often caused by the actions of other people (i.e. not the person who ends up with PTSD)?

 

[Laura 2]

If supporters could get over the them and us crap, and actually listen to some of the things that someone who has been through that has learned in their healing journey, then you might actually find a way to improve your situation.

Yes, by their nature traumatic events can happen to anyone.

There is no them v. us in this. Or, if there is, it should be sufferers AND supporters v. perpetrators, abusers, those whose malfeasance causes trauma. While there's all this fingerpointing and blame amongst sufferers and supporters, the abusers/malfeasants are getting on with their lives, probably laughing up their sleeves and probably busy creating hell in other poor people's lives.

Supporters can become secondary victims of the originating trauma/s. They need support too. But by the very nature of our trauma, we PTSD sufferers cannot easily give it. This is another area we should all, IMHO, be working on together to get the plight of sufferers and supporters recognised by and addressed with real support from all the appropriate helping agencies.

 

[Nicolette]

Looking at one side can suit your argument, but looking at both sides, suddenly things aren't simply one side bitching and whining, because the other side is doing the same thing in reverse based on their issues being felt.

I agree. I also believe that no matter how you look at any situation and evaluate it, even trying to put yourself in someone else's shoes, you will never completely understand the other person, not because you can't but because we are all unique in how we process and deal with things. Even if roles were reversed coping mechanisms, responses and so on would still be different from one person to another (irrespective of gender) while there will be some similarities. The goal posts can even shift with people changing their coping mechanisms which then throws another spanner in the works of a relationship if one partner was just beginning to try and understand a set of 'reactions'. At the end of the day, as humans, we have an in-built bias from our life experiences, the degree to which can vary from person to person or just situation to situation.

Anthony went through a stage where he wasn't interested in sex and it was a lengthy period. I didn't come here and whinge about it but it was difficult not to take it personally after many attempts at initiating sex. At some point I wondered if he was 'getting it elsewhere' due the the preconceived notion that men 'need' sex. I was as patient and as understanding as I could be. It probably annoyed me at times and I found myself questioning my attractiveness to him because, like what has been said here, I had been brought up thinking that men 'choose' their women based on 'looks/appearance' as that is their initial attraction.

Turn the tables and I'm going through menopause and sex is the furthermost thing in my mind... and I have heard Anthony say, whether it be in jest or not, that he could not maintain a long term relationship without sex.......so there you go. He's not a supporter yet he has expressed views and frustrations similar to what 'supporters' have here.

My point......I think all humans have needs. I think PTSD is a debilitating and unfair illness at times and I believe our life experiences shape our views. I just don't feel that it's fair to see a common problem/frustration/situation amongst supporters to be grounds to portray them as victims. They may inadvertently express themselves to give that impression but I just feel it is not dissimilar to labeling a person. The word 'victim' in the opening post made me feel compelled to respond as I do know what it's like and it sucks at times yet I am no victim, I have however been put through the wringer at the hands of PTSD.

 

[Meadowsweet]

@Laura, I didn't mean that traumatic events can happen to anyone. In my own case, whilst I have no responsibility for childhood trauma (because I was a child), I have had to accept that my coping mechanisms and certain needs ingrained in me, have made me vulnerable and played a part in creating a pattern of adult abuse.

People get all defensive because too often, they attribute taking responsibility with blame. It is two totally different ideas. I am responsible for my choices in adult life, it doesn't help me to be a victim and pass on that responsibility in the form of blame. It helps me to look at what it is in me that has got me into that situation, because by looking at that, it shows me how to not get into that situation next time.

This doesn't always apply - there are some one off's that are due to no more than being in the wrong place at the wrong time. But, when you can look back and see a pattern in life, as i can, then there is undeniable self-responsibility to be found to stop that pattern. That is particularly prevelant when it comes to relationships - because relationships in adulthood are a choice. So it doesn't help to look at someone as a perpetrator, and focus on trying to change the person seen as a perpetrator. It helps to look at our own choices and what it is in us that attracts us and keeps us in that place.

That's not just a personal opinion. Therapy for domestic abuse is aimed at both partners, because both partners have got to that place. To have therapy is about accepting responsibility for healing ourselves - not about finding blame for somebody else. That only gives power away.

 

[Nicolette]

Do you mean that victims

I interpreted that as meaning, there is an element of truth when a person conveys their side of the story and as such they are not necessarily acting as victims but instead speaking the truth of what they are going through.

 

[Meadowsweet]

@Nicolette, why does the word victim get to you, if you look deeper into it?

 

[Nicolette]

In this situation (being in a relationship) I am not a 'victim' as I am free to leave even though leaving any relationship can be difficult. Like you @Meadowsweet I have evaluated all my past to try and avoid being in abusive relationships. I too have been abused from childhood. I want to believe that I have grown from unfortunate experiences to prevent me from ending up where I have been or as a victim.... after a lot of analysis of those situations. I have been raped both in and out of relationships. My second experience of disassociation was being raped by my then boyfriend when trying to politely end the relationship.

That being said, being a supporter involves a lot of compassion, empathy, energy and understanding....and to be able to vent, rant or express themselves without being what I see as labelled for it is my preference. I do recall posting a thread here, using the word 'rant' and being persecuted over it so I just wanted to offer a different perspective on how words can be misconstrued and invoke reactions in others even though possibly not intended.

 

[Meadowsweet]

My rant here is open to your response nicollette. I'm a member here, this isn't the supporters section and this is a discussion. I'm not complaining about your input. I'm not ranting about your input, and if I had the authority that you have, I personally wouldn't use ranting to enforce it. Nor am I interested in you bringing up something from months ago.

The original post on this thread is about a general attitude towards sex. That's what I wrote it to discuss. If you read the thread, you'll see that I've shared why that is important to me at the moment, and why a supporter had touched me in how he had treated his wife.

This thread is a way of me working through something that I am finding difficult. I've been completely open about my issue and what's scaring me at the moment. That is taking responsibility for how I'm feeling and for my rant. That's the differentiation i make between victim (ie helpless) and being responsible for helping yourself.