Victim?

[Eleanor]

, The Verbally Abusive Relationship, How to Recognize it and How to Respond, by Patricia Evans. I happened to pick it up at a counselor's office when sorting out a safe house to get away from a nightmare roommate, and my jaw just about dropped to the floor.

My experience was very similar. Our couples' T recommended this book. There were things that my H said word for word the same. I was amazed. And distressed. For us, since he was willing to work on it, what turned the corner (once I'd realized this was what was going on...) The book that made the difference for us was Steven Stosny's "You Don't Have to Take it Anymore: Turn your resentful, angry or emotionally abusive relationship into a compassionate loving one." Really really helpful. A bit off topic, but so much of value in it that I want to share it as often as possible!

It was ESPECIALLY useful for him as the abuser because Stosny really gave him something to DO to stop being driven by anger and resentment. So he helped him stop "playing the victim." So... maybe the Stosny would be helpful to anyone caught on the victim-hood gerbil wheel. There are some nice you-tube videos of his... And so maybe it is not such a tangent!

 

[Nyssa]

@shimmerz, :-)

I'm happy if it means anything to you.

I've been at it in therapy for 3 years now... playing that victim script with my T, on and off. It was exhausting. I almost quit therapy several times because of it. I'm not sure why I didn't.

 

[Friday]

@Eleanor Loving the drama triangle!

 

[Friday]

I've been trying to figure out how to say this... I think there's a 4th aspect, as well.

Shortly after my divorce, I couldn't stop talking. It was never a simple conversation, anything that involved my ex even in the most tangential way, ended up with verbal diarrhea. First noticed it 2 weeks later, trying to pay my power bill. Now, I could have just paid it. But nooooooooo. Instead I took the poor worker hostage to my woes (in short, my ex didn't pay the power bill for a year). Yous guys have seen these/my novel-length posts when I'm disorganized & upset, IRL, I'm sadly worse. Oy. It's bad.

I stopped mid tirade, and just blushed. I'm. So. Sorry. I apologized to the utilities person. She looked at me very concerned and asked how long I'd been divorced. 2 weeks. Oh! And I got this huge grin. You're just fine honey, this wears off after a few months.

For the most part, it did. I did stop taking random strangers hostage to my troubles. What took a couple years, though, was the impulse to unload all the ways I was being wronged/ had been wronged on others.

It was a bit of a door stopper moment: I met someone at my son's school, my ex came up in conversation, and I had absolutely no impulse to eviscerate the slimy bastard in front of them. Oh. Thank. God.

Were all these things true? Yep. Was I playing a victim? Nope. All this stuff was and is currently happening. Vexing, frustrating, clearly happening. And/But their knowing about it changed nothing. There was nothing they could do. All it was doing was shoving myself into a box. "Hi! Im the crazy ex-wife!" Snarl. The exact opposite of what I was trying to do. The exact opposite as to how I felt (I didn't feel sorry for myself, I felt anger at him, and rage spilleth over).

I didn't need her to know it. I didn't need to paint myself the victim. Even, if, yah I probably am (hate it, I don't like V-stuff, I'd rather be the one doing, not the one being done to)... She didn't need to know. Moreover, I didn't want her to see me that way. By sharing, regardless of how true? I was painting myself with a victim brush. Grrrrr.

The impulse isn't totally gone. It still cuts me off at the knees from time to time. Yuck. Dammit. Gross. I struggle with it (same as these dang long posts, not being able to concise up my thoughts / processing out loud, even when I know what I want to say... Instead of 3 sentences? 3 paragraphs. Gah. Words spilleth over.)... Running around shouting the truth is as unnecessary as lying (family saying : You don't have to lie, but you don't have to run around shouting the truth, either). It's also coupled with the impulse of having to "prove" everything. Yay. Cassandra. DV. The gift that keeps giving :p .

They don't need to know I've been a victim, they don't need to know when I am a victim, and I don't have to prove anything, to anyone, period.

My bringing victim-shit into random conversations? Just skewed the conversation. Hijacked the intent of the conversation. Skewed its purpose and it's result. It -really- didn't matter. It's a weird line to walk. Yes, the abuse matters. But it is not this poison cloud that needs to infect everything. Some things are allowed to exist without being touched by it. Even if I'm always touched by it. I dont have to share. And, unlike minimizing & hiding which only makes things worse, that seems to help scrape the poison off me.

 

[shimmerz]

but you don't have to run around shouting the truth, either

I so made this mistake along the way. Over and over and over again. I felt like it would 'shine the light'. It just doesn't though.

 

[scout86]

ROTFL! I kind of did the same thing after my divorce. And, he may have been a psychopath but he wasn't actually a monster. AND, I NEVER let on if something's bothering me! So it was a bit unnerving. A mercifully short phase, but then we didn't have kids together. But, absolutely could not quit! It's a wonder any of my friends from that time are still speaking to me.

Yet another aspect....... I know a few people who appear to use "vicitmhood" with the intent to control. And, somehow this seems different than just "feeling sorry for yourself". My mom, for example, would decide that the house absolutely HAD to be cleaned in the evening when everyone just wanted to relax and watch TV. But she couldn't just clean. It had to be done with as much drama and as many "the things I have to endure!" sighs as possible. Which, seemed designed to guilt people into helping. Only she would then refuse help, accompanied by more sighs. Another example. I was visiting friends. The wife had done something truly ill advised and lost nearly all (or all) of their savings. We were sitting around, brain storming about ways to get the money back from the con artist who had taken it. She started going on about "Oh poor me! I'm so stupid, I always do everything wrong......" OK, I knew this game ! The next phase should have been him & me telling her she was ok and it wasn't her fault. He looked at her and said, "Don't go there with me!" She shut up. I was amazed! Didn't realize refusing to play along was an option! I loved it and have been working on holding that thought ever since.

Honestly, it's been my perception that this bunch of people doesn't REALLY think they're victims as much as they've actually learned that this can be used to get people to do what they want. I have a theory that this goes, maybe, with narcissism and I also have a theory that narcissism and PTSD might be mutually exclusive. I haven't seen any of this kind of behavior around here. At least not that I'm sure of.

 

[shimmerz]

I also have a theory that narcissism and PTSD might be mutually exclusive

I don't think they actually allow themselves to fall into victim mode, they stop at nothing (imho) to not be the victim. Given this, the Karpman triangle just wouldn't work. I wonder then if the victim of a narcissist must, in fact, turn to victimizing themselves or others, therefore hating themselves (or others) for being the victim because they have never been able to successfully put the narcissist into the role of victim ever. Just thinking out loud. Don't hurt me if this makes no sense. lol.

 

[scout86]

I don't think they actually allow themselves to fall into victim mode

I've talked about this a little with my T. (He says he suspects my ex was a narcissist, a psychopath, or some kind of combination.) The way I've come to understand it, it's almost BEYOND "allowing themselves". In their version of reality, it sounds like maybe it's just impossible for them to be a victim.

The weirdness of this was kind of brought home to me with the way my T explained something my ex did related to the divorce. He had 3 kids and a brother who lived a couple hours away from us. They are a close family (the 2 daughters are next door neighbors). He told EACH of them a different story to explain the divorce. None of the stories were true. In fact, they were rather wildly UN true, (I was running off to join a cult? Seriously!) Well, these people TALK to each other! WTF? Not only that, they all talk to ME. I've never understood this. I can understand him lying. I can understand him wanting to make me look bad. I could NOT understand different stories to people who would obviously compare notes.

My T explained it like this. A narcissist has to be the center of attention. In fact, in their version of reality, it's OBVIOUS that that's exactly where the universe wants them to be. They like to tell stories. What matters is that they LIKE to tell the story. It really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. At ALL! So, in their version of reality, them being a "victim" is a different construct. I guess they can be a "victim" if they can be Joan of Arc. If that makes sense?

 

[shimmerz]

Not only that, they all talk to ME.

This is why my narcissist (sociopath?) keeps me singled out with the kids. None of them see me 'together'. Mine is very intelligent and evil. Yes, I agree. He will 'play' the victim if it suits him, but he will never ever be the victim. He will stop at nothing. So then, how does the triangle fit in here? I can't see victims switching to perpetrator mode in this case.

 

[scout86]

Maybe they "play" all of the roles when ever they want? But THEY KNOW they're playing a role? Because, when I think about it, my ex was playing the victim and trying to make me look like the bad guy at the same time. Maybe there are different ways of doing this? Maybe sometimes people are working the triangle without realizing they are doing that, and sometimes they are doing it, knowing full well that they're messing with everyone else?

"Mine" was also very intelligent and quite charming. Not really evil exactly. Lots of people really liked him and still do.

 

[sun seeker]

I've changed my mind a few times about what I want to say here, and this is still a work in progress so bear with me.

I tentatively think @scout86 is right, they play whatever role it takes to get what they want. The really scary part is how breathtakingly good they are at acting. They're so incredibly convincing. And they can come up with whatever lie they need to get what they want and have absolutely no guilt about it. They pick up on other people's weaknesses and how to use them to their advantage in the blink of an eye. What I've never been able to figure out is, do they actually convince themselves they are telling the truth? They seem so sure of themselves. It's a lack of empathy coupled with a startling intelligence.

My ex could play the victim role and convince anyone he wanted. Including me. It was only when I KNEW that what he was claiming wasn't real that I began to disentangle my mind from the manipulation. Began. I'm still a little dizzy and disoriented even writing about it. He would sound so hurt claiming to my face that I had lied about something to make him look bad when we both knew I had been telling the truth. I read something about narcissists that had a helpful tip: whatever they are accusing you of doing, there's a good chance that's what they are doing right at that moment themselves.

Perhaps the victimization becomes the way anyone involved with one of these people ends up attacking their own mind, around and around in circles, like Alice on her trip through the looking glass.


I hate to be part of the club of people with a narcissist for an ex partner, but it has to be good for something, if only warning others.

 

[Friday]

Lol... TheEx has several diagnosis. I refuse to use them. At least the vast majority of the time. I just call him an asshole. Or an evil prick, although he's on the lower end of evil. Too much of a coward to rate the full monty. He deserves none of the fear, glory, or attempts to "understand" him that his diagnoses provoke. He's just a common, petty, festering boil on a syphilitic baboon's nut sack. May he die alone, screaming. :)