What Is "narcissistic Abuse"?

[Chava]

I see this here once in a while and I really don't know...what is it about? Is it just mean people or is it about people manipulating you into somehow submitting to their own self-important agenda or diminishing you to make themselves look better? Or like people in authority creating hell for anyone who doesn't love them or admire them properly but maybe even questions them? (has a boss like this, but more below)

I'm curious because I've known a couple people I would personally classify as pretty narcissistic but they were very charming and friendly...like Mother Theresa personalities..."all good" and above others, only helpful to the point it preserved this self view. One was a friend for a while...she was smart and interesting and I wanted to be able to have a friendship but it felt like she was always talking about herself and also always competing. She said she felt intimidated by me and I didn't know what the f*ck that was about because she knew I was struggling with things and a pretty regular human. But if anyone did anything better than her (even just ONE thing), she managed to distance herself. WTF? She was friendly and charming and had a load of admirers at any point in time...but real friendship felt impossible because of her hierarchies. If she wasn't the center of attention in a covert sort of way, with 100% approval, and "better than everyone in a non boastful way, she disappeared and found something or somewhere else to have her stage and followers. She never belittled others but seemed to spin circles always searching for new webs of admirers.

Another person like this was a former colleague. Anyone who even criticized her in a professional way was thrown under the bus somehow and turned into an evil villain against her all-good self. Others were mean but she was "nice" all the time. She was actually ones of the biggest bitches I ever knew because of how she manipulated people and back-stabbed them. But it was all to preserve her own sense of superiority (though I also understand this was probably rooted in fear and perhaps deep shame...I would have completely respected her and tolerated some of the shenanigans had she gone for help instead of destroying relationships at work left and right and looking for ways to get her colleagues in trouble...if they were "bad" then their rejection or simple criticism of her did not matter).

Anyway, I've met more "All Holy" narcissists that are mean behind the scenes, if at all. But they go out of their way to gain personal admiration and attention. Is this narcissism or something else? Would someone throwing everyone else under the bus to make herself look "all good" (or get those who disagree out of the way) be a narcissist or would the damage she did be considered "narcissistic abuse?" I've been thrown under the bus and had a boss believe I was terrible based on what this sweet ass-kissing colleague manipulated her to believe...though I'm not adding this to my list of traumas....i'm just curious. I also had a boss many years ago who made life hell for anyone who questioned him instead of blindly admired him. He really was a narcissist and was ultimately booted for creating a very negative climate full of fear and divisiveness (some of this felt bpd-narcissistic). For a while he had the public thinking the workers were responsible for the mess he created (I relate to forms of gaslighting and victim-blaming from early years though I don't consider it narcissitic).

Do we overuse the term narcissist? How do we use it? Is it mostly about arrogance or self-absorption, or are true narcissists the charming bully types? Are they really narcissists or just unable to give us what we want or empower or own positive self concept? If they are narcissists, how do they hurt us? Is it words? Manipulation or covert control? Or belittling others to inflate their own "worth"? Is there such a thing as reverse narcissism (like calling people narcissists for being mean and not supporting our own positive self-view)? But mainly, if you've experienced abuse from a narcissist what was that like?

 

[shimmerz]

In Greek mythology, Narcissus (/nɑrˈsɪsəs/; Greek: Νάρκισσος,Narkissos) was a hunter from Thespiae in Boeotia who was known for his beauty. He was the son of the river god Cephissus and nymph Liriope.[1]He was proud, in that he disdained those who loved him. Nemesisnoticed this behavior and attracted Narcissus to a pool, where he saw his own reflection in the water and fell in love with it, not realizing it was merely an image. Unable to leave the beauty of his reflection, Narcissus drowned. Narcissus is the origin of the term narcissism, a fixation with oneself.

I love the part where he drowns. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

[Hope4Now]

I think it's an interesting question. Think all of us have narcissistic parts...infants are completely narcissistic after all...they must be to survive. But something does happen with some people, and either that part of their personality grows out of all proportion, or is never fully managed by other parts of the personality.

I think narcissism, like so many other things, falls on a spectrum from healthy (like babies/or the human need for respect) toward annoying/selfish (those 'it's all about me" people) toward the other end of the spectrum that includes really toxic narcissists who need to use other people in various ways to maintain their narcissistic part which seems essential to their survival.

I've been the victim of narcissists. Whole childhood, but also in a few relationships which, thankfully I extracted myself from. It is so toxic because narcissists can be so charming and friendly and smart. But they're like vampires. They feed themselves on others and give nothing back. And worst, they make their victims feel that it is they who are at fault...that there is something wrong with me...

 

[Chava]

It is so toxic because narcissists can be so charming and friendly and smart.

I know I even talked about these traits but reading someone else write them hit me differently (weird)....I am NOT drawn towards charming people generally (why I probably don't understand the abuse concept of it well). I like slightly self-deprecating or cranky people (ha!)...I think it's a cultural thing for me. Also, if they are overly popular, they probably aren't quirky enough for me. I tend to like the people most people don't like. Outcasts, eccentrics, weirdos, nerds. People I can just be myself around. But, like with that one friend, I was fooled. She wasn't toxic though, just incredibly confusing. The former co-worker was toxic within the workplace (and I was fooled in some ways too...I believed she was sweet, awkard, naïve...for a long time, like everyone...extremely manipulative).

 

[shimmerz]

I believed she was sweet, awkard, naïve...for a long time, like everyone...extremely manipulative).

I think this is one of the characteristics. If they want something from you (even attention), they will be anything you want them to be. It isn't so bad when we don't realize what they want, because they can be so unbelievably charming, but when they don't want, the realization that one has been played as a fool can be soul crushing. Especially for sensitives.

 

[Whitebird]

I think all people are kind of self-absorbed, but narcissists are different. And all people can be somehow abusive, but they are not necessarily narcissist. Real narcissists are real monsters.
As I have dealt with a (pathologic) narcissist for about 25 years, I know them quite well. They are not just simple arrogant people. They are extremely self-absorbed. I mean they CAN'T see other people's needs, emotion, existence etc. But they THINK they can!
They NEVER feel shame.
They use (actually abuse) others for their purposes. If it is needed to be kind they can! If it is needed to kill someone they can!
There are some times that they realize something is wrong with them, but NEVER get it seriously.
Some of them are charming, not necessarily all of them, though all of them THINK they are!
They can do ANYTHING and make a lot of excuses for their actions that everyone can believe! It makes them unpredictable monsters!
They can lie professionally and make you think YOU are crazy NOT them!
I know all of the above, but I have not realized in which case he was really lying to me yet!

 

[Dana1010]

the realization that one has been played as a fool can be soul crushing.

Ugh, the humiliation. Craving revenge with every fiber of your being and having no way to get it, because they're long gone now. Years later, I'll still recall something suddenly and realize, "Ooooh, that's why he said that. He was lying about that too."

 

[Deleted member 27340]

Narcissistic abuse is feeling like your identity is being stolen, controlled, hidden and kept distant from you, while being taught that you are never good enough and never worthy more than the narcissist says you are.

 

[Chava]

They can do ANYTHING and make a lot of excuses for their actions that everyone can believe! It makes them unpredictable monsters!
They can lie professionally and make you think YOU are crazy NOT them!

This, and having no shame...I relate to a lot from one of my parents, though they did like themselves or care to make others like them, and never wanted any attention...just more like displaced rage they didn't want to sort out. Anyway, definitely strong ego defenses and some over-lap with possible personality disorder.

 

[Chava]

Narcissistic abuse is feeling like your identity is being stolen, controlled, hidden and kept distant from you, while being taught that you are never good enough and never worthy more than the narcissist says you are.

This makes sense. I rarely hear the term "narcissism" in my (sub) culture. But it doesn't totally fit with the self-love version of narcissism I understand. But probably it's a heightened level, or possibly involving personality disorder where they have a pattern of gutting other people's sense of self. ?? Is this "trauma" or just psychologically damaging in other ways, like obviously messing with one's sense of self (which is common in trauma but in purely psych abuse maybe doesn't include the physical symptoms??).

I never had a strong sense of self but also feel like I don't care or haven't missed anything. My sense of self is too obscure to even feel threatened. But I am easily turned off by overly charming people or anyone that tries to manipulate my feelings, whether trying to guilt me for their feelings or even try to make me feel happy so they can feel better.

 

[StarChild]

Years later, I'll still recall something suddenly and realize, "Ooooh, that's why he said that. He was lying about that too."

Bingo! :mad:

 

[Valentino]

If they are narcissists, how do they hurt us? Is it words? Manipulation or covert control?

Aggressive personalities and people on the personality disordered spectrum have an amazing ability to distort reality. The more abusive types actively use reality distortion fogs upon vulnerable victims for personal benefit.

I shared some of my observations of their common tactics in an earlier thread that started with discussing sociopaths.

here's an excerpt:

One of the primary ways of brainwashing is the active use of Fear, Obligation & Guilt to expose psychological weaknesses of the target. As long as we have unresolved emotional baggage and have lost touch with our own needs and desires. We will be susceptible to these emotionally manipulative attacks. PDs are experts at finding, exposing and taking advantage of our emotional triggers. Trying to cover up our emotional wounds and triggers is ultimately a big waste of time and effort. It would be a better use of time to try to use this as an opportunity to better get to know ourselves and heal some of our emotional wounds. As we become more healthy, we naturally develop more confidence and as a by product we feel more empowered to take a stand against future distortion campaigns from PDs.

-- full post: https://www.myptsd.com/threads/therapist-clueless-about-sociopaths.48455/page-10#post-777755

True narcissism is a DSM personality disorder diagnosis, and many people mistake narcissistic or borderline abuse as sociopaths. While true sociopathy likely has more of a conscious impersonal pure predator flavor, while personality disordered abuse is more motivated by maladaptive unconscious addiction like coping strategies dealing with a chaotic inner world.