Therapist Clueless About Sociopaths

[joeylittle]

Does anyone else think trauma induced by sociopaths/psychopaths is unique and distinct from other types of trauma, at least in the details of how it occurred?...Do you think if your trauma was caused by a psychopath, that's a crucial piece of the puzzle and needs to be integrated in therapy?

@greenleaf, this was the original question. And the thread has totally spun off in multiple directions - but I'll say again, it is likely that I was abused by people one could call psychopaths, either in the clinical or pedestrian sense of the word; and I (personally) don't find that it has any relevance to my therapy, nor do I think the trauma experienced (in my case, anyway) was distinct from other kinds of trauma.

But from the original question we lept into a whole lot of "I know em when I see 'em" vs. "No, you don't".

the whole "confirmed diagnoses only" thing feels totally bizarre to me given the context of this forum and the original post here.

I don't think it is bizarre, given that even we who have PTSD put much stock in our own diagnostic criteria. And that this is a mental health forum, and anti-social is a mental health diagnosis. I don't get to walk down the street and call someone bipolar because they are appearing to be manic. Someone doesn't get to call me schizophrenic because I sometimes react to things that aren't there. I believe, no matter how strong ones' instinct might be, that applying a diagnosis based only on how someone behaves is a really, really slippery slope - and frankly, hypocritical.

So it's not directly related to the original question, this debate - but I'm surprised how many people are willing to just say they know someone is a psychopath, or sociopath (meaning in both cases anti-social personality disorder or dissocial personality disorder) based on their behavior alone without incorporating any knowledge of their history. How bout we just call these people just plain evil?

 

[Dana1010]

having known one confirmed, diagnosed psychopath horribly well, and researching the topic, in my opinion could make you well aware of the "sense" of such a person.

One interesting thing is that with the psychopaths (can I say that?) I met, I would find myself thinking, "He reminds me of my father, and I have no idea why. They have nothing in common - they don't look alike, talk alike, or work in the same field, but there's just something about him that reminds me of him." It was just a scent, so to speak.

 

[Lady of Longbourn]

the psychopaths (can I say that?) I met

You have met more then one psychopath [if your father was one]?

there's just something about him that reminds me of him

Projecting...?

 

[radicalgratitude]

"He reminds me of my father, and I have no idea why. They have nothing in common - they don't look alike, talk alike, or work in the same field, but there's just something about him that reminds me of him."

It could be as simple as a gut feeling that alerts you that this person may not be safe. Why don't we say they are possessed by demons? I think that would create the same internal warning systems.

 

[Lady of Longbourn]

They have nothing in common

This isn't true either. They do have something in common; Your idea that they are psychopaths. You said they remind you of your father...so it's totally possible that you are picking up something you are not even aware of and projecting it onto these people...Now it could be possible that this person is not a safe person or not someone you would want as a friend...but calling them a psychopath has no foundation.

 

[Dana1010]

You have met more then one psychopath [if your father was one]?

Aside from my father I have met two I would say were definitely psychopaths. There were others who were probably on the spectrum, but I want to be careful.

Your idea that they are psychopaths.

I neither knew nor assumed that they were psychopaths at the time. I didn't even know my father was diagnosed until after those two men passed out of my life. I didn't become educated about psychopaths until down the road and then it just all fell into place.

 

[Valentino]

I'm sensing that there seems to be a LOT of sensitivity regarding labeling others with potential mental disorders.

Some are so sensitive that it seems that even having a thought about someone else having a mental disorder brings about harsh judgement.

Is there some sort of thought policing going on? How successful are people policing and controlling their own thoughts? Why spend extra effort trying to control thoughts in someone else's head?

In the bigger scheme of things, I think that a large majority of people on here have received abuse from people who are on the personality disordered spectrum. A common tactic by people with PD's (personality disorders) is that they often use labels and generalizations to psychologically and emotionally abuse and control their victims. This points towards a defining aspect of people with PDs, they have consistent and pervasive behavior patterns which are unexpected and outside of what is the social norm.

Wikipedia description of Personality Disorders:

Personality, defined psychologically, is the set of enduring behavioral and mental traits that distinguish human beings. Hence, personality disorders are defined by experiences and behaviors that differ from societal norms and expectations. Those diagnosed with a personality disorder may experience difficulties in cognition, emotiveness, interpersonal functioning or control of impulses. In general, personality disorders are diagnosed in 40–60 percent of psychiatric patients, making them the most frequent of all psychiatric diagnoses.

These behavioral patterns in personality disorders are typically associated with substantial disturbances in some behavioral tendencies of an individual, usually involving several areas of the personality, and are nearly always associated with considerable personal and social disruption. A person is classified as having a personality disorder if their abnormalities of behavior impair their social or occupational functioning. Additionally, personality disorders are inflexible and pervasive across many situations, due in large part to the fact that such behavior may be ego-syntonic (i.e. the patterns are consistent with the ego integrity of the individual) and are, therefore, perceived to be appropriate by that individual. This behavior can result in maladaptive coping skills, which may lead to personal problems that induce extreme anxiety, distress or depression.
- source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder

People on the personality disorder spectrum are likely pretty common, NIMH did a research survey where they estimated 9.1% of adults in the USA have a personality disorder as defined by DSM IV.

The researchers found that the prevalence for any personality disorder in the United States is 9.1 percent. Specific prevalence rates for borderline personality disorder and antisocial personality disorder were estimated at 1.4 percent and 0.6 percent, respectively. Thirty-nine percent of respondents with a personality disorder received treatment for problems related to mental health or substance use at some time during the previous 12 months.

The researchers also found that people with personality disorders are very likely to have co-occurring major mental disorders, including anxiety disorders (e.g., panic disorder, post-traumatic stress disorder), mood disorders (e.g., depression, bipolar disorder), impulse control disorders (e.g., attention deficit hyperactivity disorder), and substance abuse or dependence. The association between personality disorders and major mental disorders may affect functioning and help-seeking behaviors, but the researchers caution that further research is needed to support this finding.
- source: Link Removed

Oh, and this 9.1% only counts clinician-diagnosed personality disorders, if you consider there's still many in the population undiagnosed, that
might mean the actual percentages could be double or even higher.

The population prevalence of DSM-IV personality disorders (PDs) remains largely unknown. Data are reported here on the prevalence and correlates of clinician-diagnosed Clusters A, B, and C DSM-IV PDs in the general population of the United States.
...
Three US studies have reported PD prevalence estimates based on rigorous clinical interviews in well-characterized non-patient samples. The estimated point prevalence of any PD in these studies was in the range 9.0-15.7%. None of these studies, though, was broadly representative, making it impossible to generalize to the US as a whole. The current report addresses this problem by presenting the first nationally representative estimates of PD prevalence based on rigorous clinical interviews.
- source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2044500/

Sociopaths and psychopaths are on the extreme end of the personality disorder spectrum. However anyone who has a personality disorder has a pervasive pattern and history of dis-functional relationships, and because of their distorted sense of reality and self, they have difficultly recognizing other's social and personal boundaries. This lack of boundaries means that people with PD consciously or unconsciously use other people as maladaptive coping strategies to deal with their own emotional stresses.

Recognizing traits of personality disorders in my family (parents and brothers) has helped me break out of childhood brainwashing and then discover and get to know my personal needs and self. And as I understand personality disorders more, I am better able to communicate with my family members, and recognize that their potential blind spots and gigantic limitations with recognizing reality and understanding other people. In the past it was easy to take it personal, now that I understand better, I can recognize that they really just 'don't get it'. And if they don't get it or can't see it, of course they don't care or can't genuinely care about me or other people. At their core, they're obsessively distracted and focused on one core coping strategy. Often some variation of a fear/rejection of a core aspect of being human.

 

[Pencil]

I really do get the proscription on labeling, but I think the focus on that actually hijacked the thread. The intention of this thread was to talk to others about that specific 'something' that is present in the actions of a sociopath / psychopath / evil monster / malignant narcissist / personality disordered at the really wicked end of an already bad spectrum / whatever - "the delivery ... that is unlike anything else". Yes, the 'details of how it occurred' are highly significant.

Both my parents were explosive and abusive, but they were still 'normal'. They lost the plot, became violent, did anything from dumping me at the orphanage or beating me so badly that i had to stay out of school, or strangling me, and so on. If, at any point, I spoke up about any of this, there would have been a reaction, and in the best case scenario, there would have been a hysterical hullabaloo and the authorities would or could have stepped in.

My sister, on the other hand, either learned her lessons well (in which case she might be called a sociopath), or she was born with the knowledge (psychopath) as she does not do anything overtly or physically violent. She is Mistress of the Sadistic Game. It is extremely difficult to give an account of how she operates without going into mind-numbing detail. But it was only when a psychologist said that her behavior fits that of a sociopath, that I could start dealing with it, for I then knew what I was dealing with. I knew then that I was dealing with a person who has no conscience, no remorse, no insight, and who does what she does for no particular reason, but with a specific aim, which is to destroy me. And the words 'to destroy me' sound ridiculously dramatic, histrionic, so Hollywood, that I have difficulty saying it, and considered deleting it. But that is part of the package in dealings with 'Those Who May Not Be Named': one can't even say what it is they do without losing credibility, or looking like the crazy person in the equation. I feel trapped in the plot of Highlander: 'There can be only one'. [ominous music building up to crescendo]

I'm not saying anything is worse for ANYONE ELSE, I'm talking ONLY about MYSELF: Give me honest, f*cked up violence any day. At the very least the cops will pay attention.

 

[radicalgratitude]

I really do get the proscription on labeling, but I think the focus on that actually hijacked the thread.

Ah. That must be why I am so confused. I have participated pretty actively in this thread but I have had trouble knowing what in the world the topic of the thread really is. So I make a guess and then I post and then the next comment may or may not have to do with what I posted so I would read what they wrote and make another post to go with that topic. :chicken:

Now I'm posting about my confusion about posting. I better stop before this becomes the new topic.

 

[ghotiff]

Maybe one of the challenges from abuse from "those who can not be named" is that when you try to discuss with others they can't help but gaslight because the abuse is so well hidden?

 

[Pencil]

Yes, hidden and sinister, and it permeates every aspect of your life and you live in constant fear.

I have now applied for a protection order against my sister. True to form, she is arrogantly opposing it, and the trial starts on 12 November. It took me 7 years to get evidence, for each separate incident is 'nothing' in terms of the law. After seven years there is now a discernible pattern. I can now show harassment, although I can't 'prove' or show or even try to point out the 'psychological abuse', 'intentional infliction of emotional distress', 'intimidation' etc etc etc, all those things that are actually described in legislation and for which there are remedies - the point is that the REAL things are hidden and difficult to prove (and often not taken seriously). But, according to the attorney, there is a clear pattern of harassment, and so I'll go with just that. Even so, with no mention of the things for which I have no hard evidence, my affidavit consists of 37 pages.

She is opposing my application on the grounds that she did not act unlawfully.

 

[shimmerz]

This is a very long and heated post so I will just focus on the OP's questions. I will read through the rest of my posts as time permits. This is a most excellent topic. I know many of you are mixed about it. I don't think the OP wanted to say 'my trauma is worse than your trauma' but instead that there are certain features of this type of trauma that need to be addressed properly, just as betrayal trauma (which the OP spoke about although not in those words) has its own issues that should be addressed by their t so does the relentless trauma that sociopaths force their victims to live through.

Does anyone else think trauma induced by sociopaths/psychopaths is unique and distinct from other types of trauma, at least in the details of how it occurred?

Yes, I believe the type of trauma induced b sociopaths is unique. Sociopaths have a 'need'. They feed off of other's weaknesses (or perceived weaknesses). This is distinct from those that are not sociopaths.

I am not so certain that the distinction is in the details but more in the tenacity. Once they have found a target their focus remains on them. So the difference, imho, is that they are relentless. It becomes a seemingly never ending cycle of push and pull.

I liken it to a cat who has found a mouse. The cat messes with the mouse just enough to have fun. The cat watches as the mouse attempts to get away and the cat is never far enough away to know that as the mouse wanders and perhaps thinks it is escaping, the cat pounces again. It is that feeling of 'okay looks like they don't care anymore' and then wham, all of the sudden they are back in your life again. Maiming. Not destroying, because then they would have to find another victim,

From the outside looking in many friends and supporters of those of us affected by sociopaths cannot believe what is happening. For all the times I used to hear (and ask myself - which had me gaslighting myself) 'But why would he want to do that????' This, because they don't understand that these people feed off of the reaction of their victims.

So, PTSD wise we have been 'trapped' because they see us as a victim and won't let go - therefore we continue to be blindsided which can turn into what others may refer to a 'paranoia', which in fact, it is not.
As well when we try to speak of what is happening we are marginalized and minimized because people just can't get their heads around why anyone would want to do this to someone. Thus, we must be mistaken. Just because something is not within the realm of one person's world does not mean it does not exist.
As another issue that stems from this type of trauma (or abuse), comes the fear of anyone. We seem to have a sign on our foreheads that says 'I am narcissistic supply' which sociopaths love because they thrive on it. We are drawn to them and they to us. When we have finally broken we realize I believe on some level that we cannot be trusted to figure out who they are and therefore we stay alone. Never trusting others and most importantly, never trusting ourselves to figure out who is trustable.

Do you think if your trauma was caused by a psychopath, that's a crucial piece of the puzzle and needs to be integrated in therapy?

Yes. Definitely. We need to be validated by someone who is aware that sociopaths exist, that can guide us out of the trap of being continually reeled in by them, and learn to trust ourselves to be able to see who out there has narcissistic tendancies and what we are searching for in those people to stop the attraction.

There is a very good series on Youtube (Spartanlifecoach) that delivers very engagingly and pointedly the pitfalls, signs, signals, and strategies for seeing narcissistic behaviour, coping mechanisms for identifying said types and helpful pointers on being able to extract yourself from said situations.