Other Attachment disorder - a shattered heart

[shimmerz]

That piece of you that knows how love feels

I won't get into details but have had to face up to my attachment disorder issues since my oldest son and his wife got pregnant and then gave birth to my first grandson. Everything broke in our relationship. My son and i both have attachment disorder issues (of course). Prior to this we had an extremely (probably too close) relationship - most likely as well sprouted from attachment disorder issues.

My sons detachment disorder takes the form of the song 'Please don't Leave Me' by Pink. That 'I Hate You, Please Don't Leave Me' type of behaviour. Myself....I just close up. I feel myself not being heard while the screaming from him drowns me out and I fall into the 'Nobody listens to me' patterns of behaviour. Each side with their own communication style that simply doesn't mesh.

During our current trials, each of us has tried to solve the problems that we 'see' but we just seemed to be digging ourselves deeper. We were spiraling out of control into the attachment disorder abyss. It was such a sick, but oh so familiar feeling to me. Watching a relationship that is near and so dear to me crumble before my very eyes while my heart breaks and then goes cold. Completely and utterly cold with my own son....

Yesterday as I was driving home I realized that my son and I were both working from a fear perspective. I needed to get back to basics and find the love - walk in it, feel it, touch it and open it again. A terrifying prospect I realized. I had a certainty in me that this search for a love seemingly gone bad was opening me to a further shattering of my heart. I do believe this certainty that the relationship was doomed is part of the dysfunction in me.

I found that place in me that would allow me to open my heart again during my meditation two nights ago, I visualized going to him with love - reached out to him and just cradled him - assuring him that I loved him through it all. I wasn't happy with his behaviour but that I was seeing the part I played in this as well. That was a hard truth to swallow. I had to stop lying to myself and recognize that I was feeding the fire.

The day after my meditation (yesterday) he contacted me for the first time in three months. Creepy. Through our conversation I kept assuring him that I loved him, refused to be dragged into the fear as he expressed his anger and threw his accusations at me and attempted to keep us both anchored by attaching to our love. He was finally capable of coherent dialogue.

I guess my questions are -
1. Are we born with the capacity to love that transcends our learned dysfunction?
2. Are attachment issues a dysfunctional place that we go to that becomes a barrier to our innate 'love place' that we are born with?
3. Are attachment disorders learned?
4. If they are (which is my belief) then do we not have the right to rage at or lock out our parents for having implanted these issues and then leaving us due to their own dysfunctional behaviour when we ourselves show signs of attachment issues?
5. As parents, is it as simple as recognizing our role in passing down this dysfunction, acknowledging it, and manning up to the pain that it takes to have our children believe in our love for them?

So many questions....I just was looking for other's experiences.

 

[Recovery4Me]

Amazing questions, each one could warrant a lifetime quest or at least deserves a book for a worthy answer!

However, I do not think my coffee has done the task to induce nimble cognition as of yet.:chicken: So I will start out with a few little chews as if those questions were sweet dessert.

1. Are we born with the capacity to love that transcends our
learned dysfunction?

For my 2 little cents on this one...
I have heard and seen so many opinions on "love" from conquerors to monks, that I hesitate to even believe that I fully grasp the 4 letters today. This concern of mine (for connotation verses denotation) of love usage muddies up my premise for determining someone inheriting an opened capacity at birth. Environment verses Genetic Predisposition is a rough one for me to navigate.

I just believe I can reach my son through hell, high water or transcend our concept of time if need be...because my spirit and soul's capacity transcends communication in my heart bond to him.

Need much more coffee, bigger brain and many more attempts on this post. lol But again, awesome thread.:hug:

 

[scout86]

@shimmerz , Wow! Just "wow! That was pretty cool and pretty amazing. (And maybe a little scary.)

1. Are we born with the capacity to love that transcends our learned dysfunction?

I think we are born with a capacity to love that CAN transcend our learned dysfunction. Doesn't mean that it will. For example, if a person never acknowledges and owns the problem, nothing's getting transcended. I guess I think there are a variety of capacities to love and be love and a variety of levels of dysfunction. I think working on it can always be expected to make things better. To totally overcome them? Sometimes, maybe yes, sometimes, maybe no.
Your second question, I'm not sure I understand.

3. Are attachment disorders learned?

I think so. I think, for evolutionary reasons if nothing else, parents are programed to "love" their children and take care of them. My T tells me that infants are programed to trust their caregivers and to believe that their caregivers with respond to them with, well, with "care" I guess.

4. If they are (which is my belief) then do we not have the right to rage at or lock out our parents for having implanted these issues and then leaving us due to their own dysfunctional behaviour when we ourselves show signs of attachment issues?

The right? Maybe, but what good would it do?
Personally, I feel like I have my own share of "responsibility" for my attachment issues. My mom has some issues of her own, no doubt about it. But, I was a "difficult" infant. Not something I chose to do, mind you, but the way it worked out, I inadvertently pushed every button she had. Things apparently went down hill pretty fast from there. We don't HAVE a relationship. We've never had a relationship. None at all. No hate, not anger, no love, nothing. She seems to be blissfully unaware of anything being wrong, so that's the way things will stay. I have friends who have close relationships with their parents, or with their kids and I find it fascinating to watch. I've talked about it with my T. I told him the only thing I can think to compare it to, is going to a zoo and observing a different species. I've also told him that I don't think it's THAT big a deal. Most children start out believing you can trust and depend on people and have to learn that that doesn't apply to EVERYONE. I started out thinking you couldn't trust or depend on anyone and now I have to learn that that isn't 100% true either.

Your last question...... If a miracle happened and my mom showed up tomorrow, doing that, I'd be willing to give it a try, out of curiosity at least. Not expecting anything, mind you. But, like I said, I really have no particular feeling for her at all. She's just an odd and occasionally difficult old lady who shows up in my life now and then. She could be a total stranger I cross paths with at the grocery store. If I was angry, I'd no doubt feel differently. It's not like I think bridges have been burned. I'm really not aware that bridges ever existed.

 

[Hope4Now]

I found that place in me that would allow me to open my heart again during my meditation two nights ago, I visualized going to him with love - reached out to him and just cradled him - assuring him that I loved him through it all. I wasn't happy with his behaviour but that I was seeing the part I played in this as well. That was a hard truth to swallow. I had to stop lying to myself and recognize that I was feeding the fire.

Wow. That is so wonderful. I am glad for you that you were able to get to this place within yourself!

I guess my questions are -
1. Are we born with the capacity to love that transcends our learned dysfunction?
2. Are attachment issues a dysfunctional place that we go to that becomes a barrier to our innate 'love place' that we are born with?
3. Are attachment disorders learned?
4. If they are (which is my belief) then do we not have the right to rage at or lock out our parents for having implanted these issues and then leaving us due to their own dysfunctional behaviour when we ourselves show signs of attachment issues?
5. As parents, is it as simple as recognizing our role in passing down this dysfunction, acknowledging it, and manning up to the pain that it takes to have our children believe in our love for them?

1. Yes, I absolutely believe we are. We need to learn how, though, because it wasn't allowed to develop in us properly.
2. I'm learning to dislike the word "dysfunctional." We are what we are, in this moment. Maybe the "attachment issues" are just undeveloped parts of ourselves...and we need to have self-compassion and self-awareness such as what you gained in your meditation...and then act from the love place.
3. Yes, I think so. From infancy for many of us.
4. I don't know about the "right." Parts of us can feel angry and want to lock out the people who harmed us. Or, like me, just let myself get hurt over and over again. But I've had some success with doing lovingkindness meditation (metta) with my mother in mind as the difficult person...and when I can stay with that feeling from my larger self, I have compassion for her and my father even though they were the cause of so many of my hurts.
5. I think so. It's what I'm trying to do. Although mine isn't "manning up" as much as "tuning in" and learning to accept and embrace all my hurt parts.

 

[SnowJo]

in response..
yes 1. Are we born with the capacity to love that transcends our learned dysfunction?
yes, a way of coping 2. Are attachment issues a dysfunctional place that we go to that becomes a barrier to our innate 'love place' that we are born with?
yes can be, but also developed as way of coping with trauma 3. Are attachment disorders learned?
I did Years of Rage therapy... had to or I wouldn't be alive, now have ocmpassion to some levels for my mum, still working through traumas from father... work in progress.. I guess the goal is to feel more at peace (for me, don't give a shit about him) but I will not abuse myself anymore by forcing myself to "forgive someone that doesn't even acknowledge what they did"... I jut want to come to some sort of acceptance everntually within myself that they were too sick to deal with life... and move on... never seeeing them again anyway.. already reported them to the cops, but not strong enough for court case. 4. If they are (which is my belief) then do we not have the right to rage at or lock out our parents for having implanted these issues and then leaving us due to their own dysfunctional behaviour when we ourselves show signs of attachment issues?
nope, sadly not.. Its a journey of self love... having morals and rules fo ryouself will certainly help you not "abuse" your kids, but you have to start to learn to love and accept yourself and your own feelings in order to be present and to truly "love" your kids... its an ongoing journey and I am a grandmother now.. I strive always to be a good mother and a good grandparent, self love and self care is key! 5. As parents, is it as simple as recognizing our role in passing down this dysfunction, acknowledging it, and manning up to the pain that it takes to have our children believe in our love for them?

 

[Weemie]

i dunno. i definitely have some attachment shit, but i'm not really sure why. my mom had me at 21, too young to understand anything. i didn't understand shit at 21. just came out of 19 years of abuse, you know, that npd shit. i got memories of her suffocating me. i put it behind me, for all that i do remember she never hit or yelled at me. people don't know how to handle their shit. i forgive that. and we lived in poverty, i think i probably felt neglected. i mean, young young. there's that attentionwhore shit in my psyche, for sure.

i don't view love as this divine intangible, encompassing warmth or you know, this “above”-feeling, this magical sparkly thing, i don't think it's intrinsic. love is a series of actions. do we have the ability to be compassionate to others, to let others in, to show empathy to others? that's what love means to me. and there's so many types of love and affection- platonic, familial, romantic, sexual. i view my own ability to act within those emotional ranges to be severely underdeveloped. i'm autistic, so my cognitive empathy is shit anyway.

on top of the ptsd i've figured out over the years that emotional vulnerability is triggering to me- people expecting sympathy from me is triggering to me. triggers all that bpd/npd/sigmund fraud shit. that makes things complicated with people, because i shut down when people are hurting. there's just this, “you have to fix it right now.” it's a machete pressed to my neck, and i lash out (usually in anger). which is a hilariously f*cked up way to react to other people's pain!

so how do you move on, how do you heal, when your ability to connect to other human beings is so retrograded? i dunno. i think you can learn to overcome your development, you can develop further, develop beyond. absolutely.

 

[shimmerz]

I somehow lost track of this thread. I am happy to have gone over it again and thank you all for your responses.

Having made the decision that love does NOT conquer all, I have decided to step out of the game.... I need compassion and kindness. f*cked up relationships, well, they f*ck me up. Perhaps my weakness, but this life is short and I don't have time to keep swinging my saber in defense. Sad, but true. I have decided I don't want to be a part of push pull stuff anymore. Perhaps when I am stronger, but not now.

It is true. I need to figure out what loving MYSELF means to me before I can actually offer love up to others. That may take a while.... and in the meantime, I am in this relationship.... and that is another posting....

 

[SnowJo]

I somehow lost track of this thread. I am happy to have gone over it again and thank you all for your...

Oh my... I am on the same page.... one day when I am treating myself with compassion and love and respect... consistently. ... I will look again... but it's no longer on my top 5 things

 

[Truthful_Whispers]

If I feel that if I connect with someone well, I can attach very quickly and easily. However, if and when (I say 'when' because it almost always happens) my trust in them is shattered, I will immediately detach and put up all my emotional walls, no matter how painful the process of emotional detachment may be.

 

[SnowJo]

That piece of you that knows how love feels

I won't get into details but have had to face up to...

Gosh, its both refreshing and painful to hear your journey.
I was (am) "emeshed" with my daughter, a form of disorganised attachement, though I did many things right, the push pull of being overly close has caused much harm. My core wasn't developed and loving her as a child was easier than loving myself, 20 years of various forms of therapy and self help later, I am still a work in progress, but getting there.

Now with 2 grandchildren, its an extremely rewarding, but also at times a very challenging relationship, because now there is the new babies who need better examples of healthy living. Knowing that my example and my leadership was lacking, knowing that I have to keep helping myself and trying to model new healthy behaviours, while stopping myself from spiralling down with feelings of guilt that come with having been a parent that had issues that caused harm to my child. My goal is to be there for myself and my daughter, and my grandkids and my son in law. Something I now know is I can not afford to be overly sensitive about things, they are doing the best they can and sometimes they can only model what they are capable of, so if I want things to be different, I need to really step up. I also need to take responsibility for taking myself out of the picture in a graceful way and looking after myself as best I can so that I don't slide back into the unhealthy ways. I choose to model happiness for my grandkids, and to play with them and show them they are important. I also choose to be honest but without being hurtful, and sometimes I really have to just shut up and let things go, they are allowed to be human, I certainly made worse mistakes in my youth.

So they don't owe me my happiness, I owe that for myself, and I know that I would not be happy without them in my life, so Its about balance, learning to set limits for myself and sometimes saying ok I have to leave and look after myself, I will call you later. Waking out saying I love you.

The all or nothing thinking has to go, the emotional slights felt need to be nutured away from them, they are not my parents, I was hers and I didn't always do a good job, so now is my chance to offer her the chance to feel more trust in love, more stability by learning it for myself and modeling it for them.

Not easy, it would be a lot easier to run, but then I would probably have the shallow existence that my mother has with her relentless persuit of acholades, at the cost of her relationship with her own children. I have had to settle for the shallowness, and the its all about her conversations focused on her latest victory or trophys, but its an empty painful existence for me to swallow and sad and lonely that she not only can't see, but flat out refuses to (have tried to develop connection from truth, but she can't see me, its too painful for her to see what she did in my childhood, so she doesn't see) Its too late for her now, but its not too late for me, I don't want my blindness to continue to affect my daughter, I want to model joy, love, limits, and be there, quietly riding out the storm at times, like a mother (or father) should. Not using my past and trauma or ilness as an excuse to continue being part of the problem, but holding myself to the highest account, (forgivng myself when I get it wrong so that I can get right back on the horse to my goal of a healthy relationship and a loving example of a mother for a daughter I have always loved...)...

so I say don't let the depth of a trauma reaction where your heart goes cold affect your relationship with your son, that's a trauma reaction that you can address and learn to come back to your heart and accept the feelings, love yourself and treasure the love for your son.

All the best..

 

[Ronin]

A nice thread.

1. I don't even know how to answer this one. Define 'love'.
Are we born with needs for attachment? Yes. Nurturing? Yes. If that's 'love' then yes.

2. I don't know that attachment issues signify dysfunction, necessarily.

It's a lot of circumstances thing.

Not attaching to a bunch of pricks, even though it would be termed 'attachment issues', is pretty sane response.

Attaching to them may be self preserving though and better for the chance of surviving. Also a sane response, even if not necessarily sane feeling.

Is either of those dysfunction? Depends where you stand.

3. Which brings me to 'define disorder'.

4. If people have right to their emotionality is a separate question from cause & effect, who-wronged-whom-first.

The feelings are going to be there. The reactions in some way also.

How they're played out & tolerated is a different thing.

Adults don't have a right to be evil pricks to kids, punto.

5. Recognizing & changing & not starting in the first place if possible.

Recognition won't cut it.

 

[shimmerz]

so I say don't let the depth of a trauma reaction where your heart goes cold affect your relationship with your son, that's a trauma reaction that you can address and learn to come back to your heart and accept the feelings, love yourself and treasure the love for your son.

Nope, this is ongoing stuff. Long story. I have a couple of people who are very influential in my son's life continuing the toxicity. I have 3 sons in total... it affects my relationship with all of them. I have to walk away. Won't be doing this any more. I thank you though @SnowJo . I just have a different set of circumstances.