Abusing My Dog

[Eleanor]

@Solara, I'm not saying you should agree with me, ok? And I totally get the "some people just need killing" impulse, and ... at different times I agree with it. When I am calm and in my best self, here is what I think:

1) Everyone should make every effort to keep everyone safe.
2) Some people, for a variety of reasons, are not safe to have free in society and are not getting better, and don't want to, so, in the interests of 1) the best thing to do is to lock them up.
3) I don't think making me or anyone else feel much much much better, justifies intentionally harming someone else. Because I don't think it is ever legitimate to use hurting other people to make myself feel better. If they consent to take the risk, that I might unintentionally hurt them that makes it a little different. But it is still a tricky judgment.
4) We can use sufficient force to stop someone who is doing violence (intentionally or not.) Intentionally harming someone else without a legitimate (moral) purpose and in the absence of any evidence that that harm will effect some positive change for that person or others that is greater than the harm imposed is my definition of cruelty.
5) Cruelty hurts the perpetrator (less) and the victim (more.)
6) "Ought implies can." If a person is sufficiently mentally ill that they are not in control of their actions - then no, they don't "deserve" to be punished. They are ... a problem to be dealt with humanely. No one deserves to be punished if punishment means infliction of harm beyond what is necessary to stop or alter the behavior.
7) No one deserves the cruelty of others. Ever. For any reason.


If punishment is intentional infliction of pain without any greater and certain benefit - that sounds like cruelty to me.

For the record, I struggle (and often fail) to live up to this standard.

But I can't disagree with any of the premises. And they logically (deductively) imply the conclusion that punishment (not correction) is unacceptable.
So, yeah. I don't think anyone deserves to be punished.

 

[Recovery4Me]

@bell I agree in a strong manner with you...yes, help is what is needed for the OP.

However, the author elected to post publicly an explosive topic and also a crime.

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/20...uelty_to_uniform_crime_report_statistics.html

Considering most of us have PTSD as well as animals, I think we all are doing well handling something that cuts to the bone. I have seen much worse on other sites with normies when a "troll" not a member of course touched an inflammatory subject involving animals or children.

In reality the OP knows to seek help and I am sure will do so.

 

[Justmehere]

I think everyone, including the OP, can agree that dog abuse is wrong. For many of us, including myself, it's not just a moral stance, but one that hits us personally as dog owners.

I myself would take a billet for my dog. I have also been overwhelmed at times, and while I never was tempted to abuse her, I have had to drop off my dog with friends dog daycares at times while I worked through my symptoms.

The OP came here looking for support. Of course no one is going to support dog abuse. While the OP may have some denial about what needs to happen, even they know it is wrong and has guilt about it.

I think many people here have sent a loud and clear message that the dog abuse has to stop.

I work with children who have been abused. At times, I have had to be near or talk to the accused perps. I do not have warm happy feelings towards them and I fight for them to face proper consequences for what they have done. But, simply condemning them and punishing them isn't a solution. Too many of them never actually fave consciences or do so for just a short period of time. They eventually rejoin society.

In this particular case, think that simply condemning the OP isn't a solution either. She will not be permanently removed from all of society for dog abuse. Not even if she killed the dog. Even if she was jailed, she would eventually be set free - and likely have even worse PTSD from the hell of incarceration. And yes, her offense is a criminal act that would get jail time in the state she lives in. She also lives in a state that has many resources for overwhelmed dog owners to re-home or relinquish dogs to agencies that will find new homes.

I do not think the remedy is to never face a consequence for abuse of an animal - not at all. I think that is only PART of the remedy.

Do we punish or do we rehabilitate? I say both. In her state, most areas even have what are called mental health courts - because even our screwed up legal system realizes that punishment alone isn't working. The recidivism rates are significantly lower for the same offenses when the offender has a mental illness and goes through the mental health court system rather than the regular system. In the mental health court system, there is punishment - but there is also required treatment and weekly follow up and encouragement given to help the offender stay the course and get better so that they don't continue to do the behavior when they are out of the legal system.

So I think the most important question is, how does the OP move forward toward health for her sake and the sake of others, and how do we respond to them when they are seeking help?

Yes, it is good and helpful and right to point out the seriousness of the situation and the harm done. But, especially when someone is struggling with sucidial ideation, hopelessness, and guilt already, we don't need to keep hounding on that. The point has been made.

I hope that from here, we can move even more in the direction of encouraging solutions, building towards health, recovery, etc. - which does include taking action to protect the dog, but isn't just limited to that one thing.

And if the original poster is still reading, I hope you are reaching out for help somewhere, and talking to your current doc and/or a new one, and working out a solution for you dog, and you - not suicide. You deserve to live and recover too - it is possible and doable. People who have done much worse have been able to change and live good happy lives. They had to work hard to get the right treatment and it takes time; but I think you can do it.

 

[Ed Norton]

It's hard for me to be empathic when I picture a sad dog. I love dogs. This thread upset me, normally I'm very empathic, but I'm now at a loss. I guess that I'm just mean and stupid.

 

[ms spock]

Well congratulations for a hell of a lot of self indulgent judgementalness and moralising.

Anyone notice that the OP hasn't come back here to post? Given the circumstances and the responses, it was brave as hell to make the first post on this thread.

It was brave to post about abusing the dog. And it is also shutting down the conversation and dialogue for anyone else on the forum who might be doing the same thing. Behaviours can't change if people don't talk about it. So do people want other members to post about love and light and stay in denial because they don't want to be rained down on?

What do we want? I would suggest that we want the dog to stop being abused. Personally I would like to see all people, children and animals, who are being abused, stopped being abused.

Is telling someone off and being harsh going to change their behaviours?

But can we all stop raining hellfire on the OP for a bit so that we can encourage her to get help, not scare her into never admitting the truth of her behaviour again and not getting the proper help she needs?

And also preventing and putting off other people who are abusing their dogs from talking about it. Once people talk about it - things can change, if they are in denial then nothing is going to change, if they are doing things in secret nothing is going to change.

I think if my father had asked for help with his dog and animal abusing ways and had received support rather than condemnation then things could have been very different indeed for us kids. You work on one area with an abusing person then other areas come to light.

Shutting things down is not helpful for any of us, except for us to maintain a fiction that people with PTSD don't do this type of thing.

Of course people have to take responsibility for doing their behaviours. Read what the practical suggestions people are making about the dog.

So I have worked in wildlife, animal rescue, wildlife rehabbing, at a top Australian animal institution where I just didn't get any more shifts because of my comments on an animal welfare issues. I have (attempted) to intervene in animal hoarding and those animal hoarders once they become attached to a zoo, wildlife group, animal rescue groups, etc are very hard to deal with. And some people work with animals because they love them, and some people do it to get access to animals for very poor reasons indeed, and one of them is to abuse them. Of course zookeepers, animal trainers, wildlife rehabbers, animal rescue people are above suspicion and I have not been popular, but people have come to me later and said I didn't see it at the time but now I know what you were talking about. It is more widespread than people like to acknowledge. So talking about it is a great start in my humble opinion. Because whilst other animal carers and professionals are looking the other way and not doing anything or going to the occasional other extreme condemnation (to make themselves feel better it would seem with no real substantial effort in to making actual change,) which is basically a lot of self indulgent judgementalness and moralising without substantive change in zoos, aquaria, animal shelters and wildlife groups to prevent such people from getting access again.

I have also dedicated about 30 years of my life to bringing attention to child sexual abuse and domestic violence - on radio, at conferences, blah, blah, blah and doing a wide range of activism that has taken me from the streets protesting to parliament house making submissions to ministers. So I have earned my stripes. I find it offensive, and it does not help your case @Ed Norton when you make cheap shots about that child rapists should teach at kindergarten, because one, I am supporting a woman who is going through a series of court cases and will appear before the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse -- yes because basically a child rapist was working in a kindergarten. It happens @Ed Norton it happens a lot. Just as the abuse of animals happens a lot too. It is extremely wide spread. I do a lot of work and I am involved in a lot of things that I don't mention on this forum that much, I am making an exception because a cheap shot like "child rapists should work in kindergartens" is a cheap shot that need not have been made. For a woman that was sexually abused for about the first 15 years of her life and then almost raped by her father again in her 20s such a throwaway line doesn't help your argument and it makes me have little respect for you as a person. So on one hand I think how dare you try to minimise the whole child sexual abuse thing in such a off hand way (from my point of view,) but then you are entitled to have your opinion but I would suggest that you think about how that type of comment might impact on child sexual abuse survivors.

My father was extremely abusive to animals. He would beat the dog with a chain until it wouldn't flinch. The things he made us line up and watch were reprehensible. So am I against cruelty to animals? Yes, and I have put my money where my mouth is, it is the reason why I didn't get any more shifts at a supposedly top Australian institution of Animal blah blah.

Your feelings of being upset about abuse of a dog are reasonable - but work it out in another thread so those of us who actually want the abuse to stop can get on with supporting the odd person, who is brave enough to speak up about their problems to get help and move on. That way we can make sure animals are treated better in the long run.

 

[ms spock]

I never saw anyone else talk about animal abuse on the forum.

Just because no one else is talking about it doesn't mean it isn't happening. In families with domestic violence it is typical for the companion animals to be abused. Many child abuse cases come to light during investigations in to animal cruelty - the two are inextricably linked in many cases.

 

[ms spock]

I guess that I'm just mean and stupid.

Not necessarily Ed. You just need to think about what you want to achieve. Then you need to break down the steps to get there. Knee jerk responses and kicking the boot in are often not helpful.

 

[ms spock]

listen to your doctor. It doesn't matter what the diagnosis is or what caused it. All that matters is that you're getting the help you need and getting better.

I agree. Just like the cause of your mother's pain doesn't justify her abuse of you, the cause of your pain doesn't justify causing pain to your dog.

 

[ms spock]

I admire your courage to face this.

It is courageous to face this.

 

[ms spock]

Don't let what was done to you lead to your dog being traumatized too. It's not fair what was done to you - don't let the cycle of abuse continue and let your dog continue to be a victim too. Unlike your mother, you can take responsibility and protect your dog from the legacy of trauma.

And by admitting to what you have done and in asking advice, support and feedback you have taken the first step in breaking the cycle of violence that your mother bestowed upon you. So now do you have a plan? I think you have the ability to write a plan and do the right thing for you dog, as you really opened your self to a lot of criticism by being totally honest, and yet, you did it anyway, so a big part of you knows what you are doing is wrong and a big part of you wants to stop abusing your dog. This is a place of strength to begin from. Now it might be time to admit yourself to hospital or put your dog in to a boarding kennel or surrender your dog to an animal welfare group. The plan starts from you.

 

[ms spock]

AND clearly you don't want to beat your dog. You ARE a better person than that - and somewhere along the line you learned that you can/do get some relief from your own pain by inflicting pain on others. This is unacceptable to you, and to everyone else to. So the first thing to do is to make sure everyone is safe. Make sure you are safe. Make sure the dog is safe. You will feel a HUGE amount better about yourself when you actively care for both yourself and your dog.

I agree making your self and you dog safe is the most important first step.

 

[Deleted member 1860]

Just because no one else is talking about it doesn't mean it isn't happening

You're taking what he said out of context and twisting it. He said that because Ghosty made a comment about how there are males on this site that we have given the same advice to and we haven't chastised them for their behavior. Ed was simply replying that Ghosty was incorrect in her assumption (many of which she has made today which are incorrect) as there haven't been other animal abuse stories here. It doesn't help for you to take something out of context that is a response to something someone else has said and chastise them for it!

You're just the next in a line of people to jump in and criticize others for the way they respond to a thread. I'm not sure where all this pseudo-forum-cop stuff is coming in, but I think people need to take a step back and take a deep breath before they try to control everyone around them. Don't like what someone says? There's an ignore button for that!