Am I wrong?

[TruthSeeker]

Ok, this is probably the worlds most selfish post.

So, as some of you know my financial situation isn't good. And then my car broke down and everything got worse. I was stressed. I wasn't going on and on about it to friends but it certainly leaked through at times. So there's this older couple who I'm friends with and sometimes they treat me like an extra kid of there's. Once before they helped me out, unasked, financially. I paid them back. Things were no where near as bad as they are for me now. So, 9 days ago I got an email from J. She said they were worried and wanted to know what was going on. She said she would, "rather do something more useful than worrying". So I sent an email back and gave details. How much I was short on the car and some things I'm doing to drag myself out of my financial hole, etc. I got back an email saying that my reply was very helpful. Since then... absolutely no communication. I mean, if they don't want to or can't help me that's fine. Just tell me.

And at this point I'm irritated. Is that horrible? I just sort of feel like I'm just been left hanging. I mean, it sort of felt like there was this implied, you aren't communicating and we are stressed out. But then when I communicate... nothing. And not just that. I said I want to know, but actually I *need* to know. There is a vast difference between are loaning/giving me nothing to $500.00. My car won't be ready until Friday. There are bills due now. Do I delay or see if I work out a payment plan? I don't know. I'm trying to sell off possessions. How much do I sell and how desperate am I to sell before Friday. I don't know. And I don't feel like I have a right to ask. I don't want to put them in an uncomfortable position.

But then... accepting help, especially from anyone who seems remotely parental is a huge tangle. Help from the parents always came with massive strings. Any help meant I *owed* them. And they would do the thing where I wouldn't ask for help and then they'd push and push until I told them what was stressing and then give help but they'd also make it clear what a screw up I was and how much I owed them. oh... and the "we are worried" thing. The mother would use that as a bludgeon. If she was worried I'd get to hear how she couldn't sleep, how she couldn't eat and had gotten sick to her stomach and it was all my freaking fault. And of course that meant I was obligated to talk to her, answer her questions, reassure her and blah blah blah... and that's all in the past but maybe I'm just dragging all that crap into this current situation?

Sounds like you have unrealistic expectations from someone who is acting like they care, and reaching out, but didn't solve YOUR financial problem (it is your problem, not theirs). I'd plan as if it was your problem....and solve it yourself. Makes for better relationships, you feel better about you, and there are no strings with loved ones, and no messy entitlement feelings to screw up the relationship.

Parents are responsible for loving, raising, guiding, keeping kids safe, providing the necessities to be healthy (not the luxuries the child thinks they should have), teaching/modeling decent values, insuring an education or trade, and beyond the age of 18 (adulthood), every family has a different feeling on paying for post-high school education. 18 (sometimes very troublesome years) are put into raising/supporting a child....and nowadays, much more time is added to that if assisting in anyway with college.

Parents are not responsible for bailing their kids out time after time, but some do....and when they do....a it becomes an expectation, often creating a sense of entitlement on the part of the child to being handed $, This attitude is often the result (parents want to help-like they always have-kid keeps getting in trouble and don't live consistently on their own-and a negative help/bail kid out cycle keeps happening). Don't know if it is the case, but I've seen and experienced this in my family. Could this be a possibility? Are you only able to find the worst in your parents when you are stressed and needy-and stuck? They are not to blame for your financial issues.....nor the solutions to them.

Assume you borrow money from a friend, doesn't borrowing mean "a debt is owed?" If you need something, and you borrow/or even if you're friends/parents indicates that they'll help you out, don't you "owe them something more than a bad attitude in return?" It's called gratitude.

Being humbled when someone tries to help you is also a really selfless way to look at things....being grateful for someone trying to help you is better than fussing when they choose not to. Giving back to them something other than cash would be the kind, nice, and appreciative thing to do if you don't have money.

And well, maybe they didn't want to enable you-so they aren't getting involved. Whatever the case, nothing you said indicates they were going to send you a check. But if they do, be humbled that there is someone in your life who cares enough to bail your butt out-then always, pay them back.....because you are luckier than many folks who are without family or close friends. Good luck....

 

[Muttly]

Ok, I got super triggered and/or stressed. Went and did a pet sitting job and had an amazing experience. Listened to music and got grounded. Having said that, I am still not sure that this post was a good idea. I am going to try to stay grounded and hear what people are saying.

@grit I am sorry. I know you were trying to help. I was feeling misunderstood. That's on me, nothing you did.

To make things clear. It's completely fine if they don't loan me money. I will not be upset if they don't. Stressed because of my situation, but not upset. I did not ask them to loan me money. I talked about my car breaking down. I've talked about possibly moving because of how broke I am. I talked about filing for bankruptcy. And I mostly ddin't talk about that. The one time I did was when my cat got sick. I freaked. My car was already broken down. I already didn't think I could pay to fix the car and the mortgage and there was the real possibility, based one his symptoms that he would need surgery. So I did say stuff about being broke. Even then I never asked for anything.

They were the ones who said they were worried and would rather "do something constructive" than worry and asked me to detail the financial situation. They asked very specific questions, like how short am I on the car, etc. I answered. I still didn't ask for anything. Obviously, by answering and being as specific as I was. I was in a way asking. Or hoping. But I didn't ask. The other time they helped me out, when I paid them back. I didn't ask either. Again, I talked about my situation. At that time, my financial issues were all about medical bills. Mostly I talked about how awful and overwhelming it was dealing with insurance. I didn't expect anything. I was shocked when they gave me money. I repaid it.

The only thing I am upset about is it feels like I laid myself bare for them, was told "thank you" and "I have thinking and figuring to do" and then silence. It's the silence I'm upset about. I'd rather have them say, 'we can't help you" then the freaking silence. Why did they make me tell them all that stuff if they were just going to disappear.... and I thought @grit was wrong and I wasn't feeling ignored but I guess I am. If they hadn't initiated the whole conversation, I wouldn't feel that way.

@Justmehere thank you. I feel like you understand what's going on inside my head, at least, well. And yeah. In my family, the experience was always to that my obligation was to calm my mother's worry. I hated getting sick as a kid, because it would be so upsetting to her.

@scout86 Ok, I am definitely triggered. After the third read through of your post, I'm realizing that I totally misunderstood it the first two times. Heh. (Again, on me, not your fault). So... ok... you are right. I am assuming I have to mind read and that's leaving me going in mental circles. But actually asking for a loan... what my brain says is that just proves I'm a failure.

 

[Muttly]

@TruthSeeker Ok, this is the kind of response I tend to find hugely triggering. So, I'm going to try really hard not to go and beat myself up and assume I'm the worst person on earth. That would be my normal response. And then to flee from this. I'm also going to try to not be unfair to you.

Obviously, I'm upset so I must have unrealistic expectations. I thought I'd get some kind of reply to my last email. They were under no obligation to reply. Just because they brought up the whole subject doesn't mean they have the bandwidth to respond. The response I was going to make early, when I said my post was a mistake is how everything I've said proves how selfish I am. How much of a burden I am. Dang it, I'm getting tangled up.

Moving on for a moment because my head is buzzing. As far as your comments about parents. I suspect you are pulling on your own experiences. It certainly doesn't reflect my reality. What help I got financially from my parents was as a young adult, long ago. It was rare. As far as time after time, that wasn't me that was my brother. I could have talked about gifts instead of help. Because the same attitude existed. I gave you this gift so you owe me. And the way my dad would collect was to sexually abuse me. The way my mom would collect was to have me be her "counselor", since she wasn't about to go and get really therapy or meaningful help that would change her situation. My mother is dead and I cut contact with the dad long ago. One of his last ditch attempts to lure me back was to tell me if I didn't spend time with him he'd cut me out of the will. I told him I didn't want his money. For the next year or so he'd send me checks in holiday cards and birthday cards but I wouldn't cash them. I worked full time in college and have worked full time ever since. I work more than 40 hours now and have more of my adult life than I've worked just 40 hours. Part of why I did that is because I didn't want to owe anyone.

As far as "enabling" you are definitely making an assumption.

So, what people have been ramming into my head for the last few years, including my therapist, is it is ok to need help. That it's ok to accept help. Based on your post I would assume that's wrong and I should go back to my old MO of not sharing anything and struggling through. Based on your post, most of my brain is also saying that I'm entitled and selfish, a burden and should keep my f'ing mouth shut. I would also say that it's clear I'm a failure since I need help and if they do help me they are "enabling me". And of course, I'm not grateful. No matter what happens I should always be grateful. It doesn't matter that I'm grateful every freaking day. It doesn't matter that I'm always talking about how lucky I am to have friends. None of that matters because it's never enough. Feeling something other than gratitude is proof. I mean after all. Those are all thoughts I've had most of my life. Perhaps that's not what you are trying to say, but that's all I'm hearing.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Kudos for telling dad to keep his money. It is such a freeing feeling....I did the same to mine a year ago.

Your post said nothing about an actual money offer, they asked about your problem and you filled them in on the details, and it is what they didn't say that is key in my reading your account. You didn't hear: "We'd love to help out....we'll call you when we've figured out how much we can help". You appear to be upset because they didn't communicate....but you gave them enough information to buy in/or not buy in to helping without you having to ask....and the way you described it was kinda like you were hoping to get rescued....right? Sure, that would have been the easy way but that solution didn't come to fruition. But the fact that they didn't say they wanted to or would try, or would call back and do some checking about the problem, in my opinion speaks volumes. Maybe that hurt that they didn't.

I don't know your relationship with them, but you could ask and have it written up, with interest and an amortization table and an begin/end pay date. Offering to pay back a loan with interest demonstrates integrity and a business-like mature manner....it is just a good practice in all relationships.

I think it is human to want to help.....and be concerned for someone in a bad situation....but not want to make it a habit. Repeated rescuing can negatively impact the relationship.....a thing to watch out for...and maybe they don't want to start this loan practice, or maybe they got busy, or think you were stressing too much and figured it out and got it straight. Maybe they didn't want drama...or complications or are strapped themselves for cash, or are loaned out to the others in their family.

So, when you wrote your feelings about not considering borrowing from your family (which had nothing to do with your actual problem which is how to pay for the car bill) you came across angry in your post because you couldn't go to your parents (that's how I read it)- because borrowing meant that there were too many uncomfortable strings attached in doing so-and you'd owe them. In this situation, however, no matter where you went....to borrow.....you will owe someone.

My point, regardless of if they are your parents (and whether they are good parents or were shitty ones makes no difference), or it was your best friend, a neighbor, or a bank you asked for a loan-you would owe them the money, a thank you, and hopefully feel gratitude for having done so-JUST because they did you a kindness. The nice lady is the one who let you down...I'm really sorry you were disappointed and they didn't jump into fix-it mode....Is the nice lady a more ideal person you would have like to have dealt with....or had for a mom? Just asking....I have a few of those over my lifetime (I called them preferred parents).

The fact that your parents say they worry about you isn't a bad thing. I don't know you personally, and if you've really screwed up several times in the past (I don't know them or your background), you might be feeling kinda like a failure-regardless (I certainly have been here before with this feeling, indebtedness, issues with lacking confidence, and wanting to blame others when I'm stressed out over a need I can't get filled elsewhere), but you want them to see you independent and confident. I'm sure you want to see yourself as independent and prepared for such emergencies. You have the power to become self-sufficient so you don't get in this position which sounded awkward, emotion-ridden.... from the get-go. I learned from my own experiences that living on my own meant planning for my own financial disasters (and I've had several), so I didn't have to crawl back to my parents.....and ask for help. My brother went to them all his life for loan after loan, feeling entitled .....and I'm glad I didn't......because it helped me be more independent, and not expect them to pay my way as an adult. This is only one opinion....if you don't agree, let it go.

 

[Justmehere]

And yeah. In my family, the experience was always to that my obligation was to calm my mother's worry. I hated getting sick as a kid, because it would be so upsetting to her.

Yeah. My mother will tell me do put on a sweater because she is cold or tell me to buy a better car (currently without one) because she is worried. It's really all about making her feel better than it is about my well being... and it feels like being used in a weird way. Such codependency by others is painful. I can really understand why you are leery of anything that begins to at all feel like that again... I think (hope) this situation is different.

But actually asking for a loan... what my brain says is that just proves I'm a failure.

No. It means you are a tough cookie not willing to give up.

I've been on the edge of bankruptcy. Ready to file. My head screamed at me "failure" as well. But I had some kind folks here who helped me realize nah, that's not it. Bankruptcy doesn't means one is a failure. Life throws storms at a lot of great and really wonderful people who have put in their all and sometimes need an out. A restart. It means you put your all in, and that is to be celebrated! I have a friend who has been homeless and a CEO... both extremes... and he nearly bankrupt him and his whole company and lost 400 people their jobs on a really stupid decision. Even the most successful people by financial standards reach scary low points.

Don't let this define your worth. You are of great value. I doubt you value others based on their pocketbooks, don't do it to yourself either. You are not a burden. I know, I know, so hard to believe... It's still true. For both of us.

 

[Muttly]

I appreciate you replying again. I think we are probably talking at cross purposes... actually not sure what that phrase means now that I wrote it. I will have to google.I think we are having a communication struggle.

If they were not at least thinking about either offering money or financial advice, I don't understand why they asked such detailed questions about my finances. They asked those questions. I didn't talk about those things until they asked. I would not have gone into such detail. Ok, I just pulled up the email. The first line says "I need to get concrete information about your money situation." So yes, I had the thought that I *might* get financial help. Or if not help at least advice or commiseration? Perhaps I misconstrued but I doubt it. And if I did misconstrue, they are rather nosy. Heh. And I guess, the last line in the reply is another thing that lead me to think there would be a response. "I need to do some thinking & figuring.". Again, I'm not saying a check in the mail. A response saying, "we thought about it and can't do it." "Have you thought about trying ...." Something. It's the silence that's unhinging me.

So, when you wrote your feelings about not considering borrowing from your family

You misunderstood me I believe. I don't have any contact and haven't for a long time. And I stopped taking money from my family long before that. I wasn't writing my feelings or feeling angry about not being able to borrow from them. I was trying to explain why an offer of help gets me all tangled up in guilt and fear and uncertainty. How my thinking around what is going on in the current situation could well be distorted based on these past experiences.

In this situation, however, no matter where you went....to borrow.....you will owe someone.

yes.. but I think there's differences? Or at least, that's what I'm trying to learn. I mean, owing someone money and being grateful and finding ways to repay them (financial and otherwise) is vastly different than being subject to sexual abuse, verbal abuse and emotional manipulation because you "owe them". I mean, back in the day with the family, even if I turned down an unasked for offer of help, I was likely to be considered selfish or wrong or..... I dunno. I'm trying to think how to explain. Ok.... so I said it's the silence from J that's upsetting me. here's what the silence might have meant from my parents. I would end up getting a call from them and my mom would explain that they hadn't been in touch because she'd spent the last week not being able to eat or sleep because she was so worried about me after what I shared. How I needed to come over an to take their money and call every day to reassure her and come over more often so she wouldn't worry. That all this had been very hard on her and she was just barely holding it together. That I was going to have to put up with her calling all the time, because I was going to need to reassure her I was ok. That's the kind of crazy stuff that went along with my parents.

The nice lady is the one who let you down..

I realize I said I felt irritated. That's true. But I also strongly disagree with this. She hasn't let me down. Unless lack of communication counts as letting me down. I really don't think let down is right though. So what's under the irritation? Probably anxiety. The not knowing how I am supposed to handle this situation and what they are thinking.

The fact that your parents say they worry about you isn't a bad thing.

My mom often used worry as a weapon. In those times, it was indeed a bad thing. And that fear of making people worry is still, at times, an issue for me today. And probably is in the current scenario with J and A. Having said that, talk about my parents as if interacting with them, borrowing money from them or caring about what they think of me is off track. I do not have contact with them. In that sense, this isn't about them. Please stop talking about them as if they are a factor in my current life (other than PTSD issues) or finances. They are not.

I guess one last thing, that probably doesn't matter, to clarify. You keep mentioning repeated rescuing. I have not sought or really gotten repeated rescuing. Yes, they did loan/give me money that other time. I didn't ask for that. And honestly, in my opinion I didn't really need it. Yes, times were somewhat tough but I could cope. What I wasn't coping with was navigating my health issues, especially my mental health and insurance. Insurance kept not covering things they could cover and I didn't have the bandwidth to fight effectively with them. And from what I know now, it often takes a special kind of lawyer who knows about medical issues to deal with that. They offered. I wasn't looking for it and was very surprised. That felt awkward to me, because I had a good job and didn't feel like I truly needed it. The husband, A, explained it was something J liked to do is help people out and if I was less worried about the money and fighting insurance I could focus more on getting health. He said I'd hurt her feelings if I didn't take it. So I did. And I paid her back. This isn't about me constantly needing to be rescued or blaming others for my troubles. I'm very clear on why I'm in the situation I'm in. I don't blame anyone for it. I don't believe I've said that.

 

[Muttly]

tangent -- At cross-purposes - I googled. People don't understand each other because they are talking about different things without know it. Well, know I know.

and it feels like being used in a weird way.

Yes! This so much summed up how it felt when the mom was doing the worry/guilt/control thing. And it can be such a hard thing to make people who aren't inside of it, understand.

ok, I should have gone to bed a while ago. So this reply is short. Thanks for the words about being broke and bankruptcy and not feeling like a failure. I guess the hardest thing is, if I'd stayed in my old job I'd be ok. Well financially. I was burning out but... oh well? Now I do a job I truly love, and it's a caring job, so I'm doing good work but I'm going under financially.

 

[ladee]

@Muttly, getting caught up. I don't know how to quote, but you said their reply was "thank you" and " I have some thinking and figuring to do". That sounds to me that they are willing to help. Just needed time to see how they can help you.

I'm sorry, I know how hard it is to ask for help, or even accept help when offered. My guts get in a knot and I want to run! Glad you came here and talked it out. And awesome that you owned being triggered. When my mind is whirling, I often don't see the whole picture. Nothing wrong with that. It's what we do.

And just a gentle reminder, you do not have to answer all that post. If it's at cross purposes and it's not helping, it is perfectly ok to move on to the next post. We are here to get support. Others have stepped up and HEAR you. Take what you need and leave the rest.

Hoping you hear from them soon. I feel they are trying to figure something out to help. And really hope things slow down for you and you get a much-needed break! Gentle hugs :hug:

 

[Justmehere]

Yes! This so much summed up how it felt when the mom was doing the worry/guilt/control thing. And it can be such a hard thing to make people who aren't inside of it, understand.

Yeah, it's super hard to explain. It gets all twisted up fast even trying to explain it.

Even using the example that I had to put on a sweater because my mother was feeling cold... Most would be like yeah, moms want their kids to not be cold... it's different. Because it actually doesn't matter if I'm actually cold. It was all about her regulating her worry. If she was fine (or in my case, checked out in a way so she didn't feel worry) and I was like bleeding all over the floor, she wouldn't do a thing.

It's important to remember this couple is not likely to be like your awful parents. They have already been proven to be better. If they were truly being that icky kind of codependent, they would have probably actually tried to do much more already even if you didn't want it.

Frankly, they probably are worried. They do want you to be ok for more than their own comfort. The silence would weird me out too. But they could be trying to respect the plan you have to try to solve things.

Maybe let them know you are open for suggestions or help. See if that breaks through the silence.

I guess the hardest thing is, if I'd stayed in my old job I'd be ok. Well financially. I was burning out but... oh well? Now I do a job I truly love, and it's a caring job, so I'm doing good work but I'm going under financially.

You pursued your heart in a job that involves caring for others. You risked it all to grow and help others. That takes strength of character and courage! That's something to be proud of doing. So many people never try and die regretting it. Deeply. I know hasn't all worked out as you probably hoped, but damn, you rock for doing it! No wonder this couple cares about you so much. :) If the bankruptcy gives you the financial fresh start to make this job work, or even if it just helps give you a cleaner slate to sort out whatever comes next, don't get caught up on it meaning you are a failure. Nah. It means you were courageous enough to give it your all. Many people have to go through it (way more than I realized until I started being open about it myself) and they come out on the other side more able to be a better success. It's just a tool. Nothing more, nothing less.

Keep up the awesome work!

 

[Mach123]

I only read the first couple posts by the op. I get the picture. Your normal in terms of us, or me in particular and I'd say stop thinking about all this or think about it as collateral damage and keep working on you and your recovery however you are doing that.

As you get well, these details will sort themselves out. At least that's how it works for me. The only one you can do anything about here is you.

I hope you get some financial relief from somewhere. : )

 

[TruthSeeker]

It is hard, sometimes, to respond...and I'm sorry if you felt offended by my reply. I think maybe I saw some things in it that triggered me, as well.....after all the explanation and what you write now is more thought out, and less emotional in the moment, and I have more details....I'd just ask for clarification and let them know that it is time sensitive. Good luck. ?

 

[DharmaGirl]

You know, @Muttly, bankruptcy isn't the worst thing in the world. It feels like it is, but it's not. Remember the president has declared bankruptcy 4 or more times. If it would help you, maybe it's time. Also, I totally get what you're saying. I was also in the mind reading, being held hostage for any help trap. It is hard for me to accept help. You are doing the best you can. You are not selfish, you seem to be feeling desperate for a solution. That's ok. I second what @ladee said.