News Ariana Grande groped at Aretha Franklin's funeral - by a bishop - in front of the cameras. I am disgusted!

[EveHarrington]

I’m still blown away at the idea that it’s ok for men to accidentally gripe women!

I’m goin to go out and start accidentally grabbing guys cocks.

Oh wait.

I already know that a cock grab is wrong.

Do we have to reduce this to a male female thing?

Women know it’s not ok to cock-grab or to do anything close, but not all men know that a boob-grab is wrong.....?

OMG.

So please explain to me how women know to not grab dick but men don’t know to not grab boob?

Ignorance?

Or is it because women are still viewed as sexual objects to this very day, beings who do not have full rights to their very own bodies?

 

[somerandomguy]

So please explain to me how women know to not grab dick but men don’t know to not grab boob?

You're really not aware that some women think cock grabbing is perfectly acceptable? Or are you just pretending for the sake of your argument?

Because I can assure you that there are women like that out there, which pretty much renders your argument moot.

 

[Muttly]

There are so many different things being brought up in one thread

- Was Ariana Grande groped
- Do accidentally "gropes" happen and and is that ok
- People feeling triggered and upset over the experience of intentional gropes, in the guise of "accidents" happen
- And in a more general sense, who is allowed to have an opinion on this issue. Can men? Can women who haven't experienced accidental/intentional gropes
- And the issue of generalizing men to all men which carries with it the all sorts of complexities
- Levels of abuse
- Ariana Grande and how all the uproar impacts her

What I see is a lot of black/white thinking around a lot of the different issues in this thread. I see people reacting from a their experiences and not necessarily hearing what others are saying. We have women who've experienced the side group and men who are not abusers but have been abused and felt the hurt of their experiences being discounted because they are judged with the "all men are abusers" paint brush. Given this is a PTSD site, the black/white thinking isn't surprising but it is something to work on. And it's amazing how well we do get along given all our differences.

I am fearful to say anything in this post that is so emotionally loaded, but I also feel like I need to say something. I walk a weird divide. I have lived as woman. As a woman, my *dad* did the side grope thing. I have no doubt it was a grope. It's a triggering thing to me and part of why I didn't come to this thread until I knew I was grounded enough to handle it. When I was living as a woman, I have also accidentally grabbed a woman's breast while doing an awkward side hug. I am so grateful that happened when I was living as a woman as we were both able to laugh it off as the mistake it was. I am afraid that it would have gone very different for both of us, if it happened as the man I am now.

I have felt fear of men and have slipped into the mind set that all men are bad. I certainly had enough experiences with sexually and physically abusive men. Really, the only hard thing about me transitioning to be a male was that I still tended to equate it with "abuser". Of course, I've also been sexually abused by women but because are society is the way it is, I never generalized that to all women are abusers. But the man thing... it is hard hearing women talk about *all* men in the context of sexual abuse. I get it, I have lived the life of a women and know just how often women are treated as sexual objects and how much a part of our society it is. But I have also discovered there are men who truly don't do those things.

There are people saying they think it was an accident. I don't have a problem with that. I finally watched the video and I don't. I am also willing to grant I wasn't in the situation so I don't know. And my opinion is probably influenced by my experiences. The people who say they think it was an accident don't know either. None of us do. Reading carefully though, I don't see the people who think it was an accident saying that it's always an accident. They are speaking about what they saw on a video and not making a general statement that excuses all people who claim a groping incident was an accident.

I will admit though, I read some comments that felt a bit dismissive of the experience of having someone touch you in a way that they can claim is an accident but is really intentional. Because I can tell you, it can be a serious mind-f*ck. When that hand is there and you are in the public sphere and you are sitting there wondering what to do and who sees it and what are they thinking. And you're afraid that if you freak out, you are going to be dismissed as being overly sensitive or you being the one who is sexualizing something innocent therefor you are the deviant. Some of the "worse" sexual stuff my dad did to me, bothered me worse than the stuff he did to me in public. That's my experience and others will have different. And yeah, sure, someone could come here and say rape is worse but so? That doesn't invalidate my experience. I am triggered by seeing something that might seem as "innocent" as accidental contact, saying that it's not serious sexual abuse just confirms what I experienced in the moment. That if I did anything to keep my body from being touched sexually, I would be dismissed and blamed.

 

[Sideways]

When you’ve been “accidentally” side groped and have firsthand experience in this realm, please feel free to argue with me. Until then, byeeee.

Well, yeah, I have been. Accidentally, and not accidentally. And the difference for me was huge.

And the concept that “your opinion isn’t valid unless you’ve experienced it”? Hard to see that as anything other than arrogance:(

 

[ILoveLife]

I subscribe to what @Muttly said.

I've accidentally: touched a friend's penis when I passed by him, lingered on a woman's butt on the tram when I thought it was the fabric of the seat, grabbed a woman's breast instead of the pole on the bus, and possibly more because I'm a very distracted person and these things happen, I apologize and apologize again, and then they become funny stories.
Does being accidental make it okay? No, but it doesn't make it evil either, and the solution to this is not not touching each other at all.
In the name of social justice I've read the most attrocious solutions, that would hinder humanity instead of helping it evolve.

Even if there was an ill intention there, now it's completely overshadowed by the uproar it got. The uproar itself has good and bad, on one hand it serves to bring to light that some men innapropriately touch, on the other if it was an accident the poor bishop will forever be known as the guy who groped Ariana Grande.

My question is, in light of what happens in the world, does this matter to the public eye or would it be something that Ariana could say: Hey I didn't like that. He would apologize, everyone moved on.
But since they're in the public eye, it appears to matter to all of us, like because they're famous there's an excuse for us to excruciantingly analyse it.

What I haven't been reading is Ariana's reaction. And it matters, because you know, she was the one actually there.

 

[Neverthesame]

@Justmehere I don't think the bishop ruined the funeral, or Ariana, or even Slick Willy and his inability to figure out what part of the female anatomy to look at while speaking.

It's the fact that a straightforward google search of "Aretha Franklin Funeral" nets a page and a half of "Bishop Gropes Ariana", "Ariana Grande Assaulted by Bishop", "Bill Clinton Oogles Ariana", "7 Things about Ariana Grande, you need to know!". Then what you start seeing is garbage like "Aretha Franklin had 3 wardrobe changes during funeral", "Aretha Franklin's family outraged at bishop for Taco Bell comment" Bla, bla, bla...

Eventually, you might find something about the woman they buried beyond how many wardrobe changes her body received.

When the social faux pas of the funerals living attendees is given more press than the cultural legend the event was held to honour? That's what I say ruined it.
Someone could have swapped the body for some random dead black lady, I doubt anyone would have noticed or cared.
So long as there's something to satisfy our insatiable demand to attack one another about, basic respect for the dead is happily shoved to the back burner. It's disgusting.

As a side note; I chose the word "faux pas" to describe the behaviours of the bishop, as that's what it was. Intentional or not his hand should have not found it's way onto her breast. It's not culturally appropriate to touch those in a public setting, thus making it a faux pas.
At any rate, that's what I'm calling it. It's the most neutral affectation I can think to assign it. I have no desire to state whether or not I think it was done deliberately. I won't be put on a "side" of this silly SJW nonsense of the week.

 

[LanaD]

Uh ... what?

Men actually do use that "excuse". You might not want to believe it, but there are rapists who claim that their penises accidentally got into a woman.

He was drumming his fingers into the side of her breast watch closer.

E.X.A.C.T.L.Y. If you actually watch the video you can see that. Besides, when an older woman was standing next to him he put his arm around her shoulders. I cannot believe people are excusing this creep.

I subscribe to what @Muttly said.

What I haven't been reading is Ariana's reaction. And it matters, because you know, she was the one actually there.

This illustrates one of the main challenges victims face. How many victims of domestic abuse actually go as far as to defend their abusers? It took me months to be able to even consider the fact that a man assaulted me. How many times have we seen women be groped in front of us and she pretended like nothing happened?

@Justmehere I don't think the bishop ruined the funeral, or Ariana, or even Slick Willy and his inability to figure out what part of the female anatomy to look at while speaking.

It's the fact that a straightforward google search of "Aretha Franklin Funeral" nets a page and a half of "Bishop Gropes Ariana", "Ariana Grande Assaulted by Bishop", "Bill Clinton Oogles Ariana", "7 Things about Ariana Grande, you need to know!". Then what you start seeing is garbage like "Aretha Franklin had 3 wardrobe changes during funeral", "Aretha Franklin's family outraged at bishop for Taco Bell comment" Bla, bla, bla...

Eventually, you might find something about the woman they buried beyond how many wardrobe changes her body received.

When the social faux pas of the funerals living attendees is given more press than the cultural legend the event was held to honour? That's what I say ruined it.
Someone could have swapped the body for some random dead black lady, I doubt anyone would have noticed or cared.
So long as there's something to satisfy our insatiable demand to attack one another about, basic respect for the dead is happily shoved to the back burner. It's disgusting.

As a side note; I chose the word "faux pas" to describe the behaviours of the bishop, as that's what it was. Intentional or not his hand should have not found it's way onto her breast. It's not culturally appropriate to touch those in a public setting, thus making it a faux pas.
At any rate, that's what I'm calling it. It's the most neutral affectation I can think to assign it. I have no desire to state whether or not I think it was done deliberately. I won't be put on a "side" of this silly SJW nonsense of the week.

Using your logic we'd have this: when a woman is raped and wants to bring justice to her rapist but her rapist is, say, a promising sportsman, she should be shamed for pressing charges and potentially ruining that sportsman's career with all her "silly SJW nonsense".

This thread gives us great insight into why sexual predators most often do not get punished. I'm sure if some of you knew my predator's job you'd be berating me for interfering with his genius.

 

[somerandomguy]

Men actually do use that "excuse".

We do? All of us? I'm a man, and I have certainly never used that "excuse."

I think you're confusing some totally horrible f*cked-up men for all men. All men do not pretend that rape is an accident. All men do not rape. Rapists rape.

I was sexually abused by a woman. I think I understand where you're coming from; sometimes I do think the worst of ALL women - that ALL women are horrible and all women are abusers. But then I remember that's the PTSD talking. Most women are perfectly fine people who would never abuse anyone. And the same is true for men.

 

[Neverthesame]

Using your logic we'd have this: when a woman is raped and wants to bring justice to her rapist but her rapist is, say, a promising sportsman, she should be shamed for pressing charges and potentially ruining that sportsman's career with all her "silly SJW nonsense".

What are you talking about? I didn't say anything like that.

 

[shimmerz]

because you know, she was the one actually there.

Exactly. And I am not certain that she needs all of us to decide for her what actually happened. Nor does she need us to be enraged for her. Pretty sure she can take care of this all by her self.

You realize that those of you who are freaking out are actually throwing her into the victim role, right? Maybe she isn't a victim at all and has dealt with this already.

So I am going to turn this around a little bit. If there is a question of all men do this shit - it also seems that there is the idea that all women can't stand up for themselves and need the whole world to yell and scream and make judgments (even if they weren't actually there). That all women can't handle shit. Because that is what I am reading in this thread.

Keep in mind that if one stereotypes one class of person, then the other as well will be stereotyped. If he is a predator like all other men or however you want to fill in that statement, then clearly she has to be a victim - like all other women.

Let the woman say what she needs to say about it and deal with it like the grown up, perfectly capable woman that she is!

This reactive stuff all becomes drama. I don't know about you but I have spent the last decade trying to keep a distance from drama. This is Ariana's to deal with. Nobody else. She will escalate if she feels it is necessary, I am certain of it.

Boundaries are important in many ways. Like recognizing when your opinion doesn't need to be thrown on the heap. Pretty sure Ariana's got this guys.

 

[Neverthesame]

Let the woman say what she needs to say about it and deal with it like the grown up perfectly capable woman that she is!

This 100%

 

[Neverthesame]

Using your logic we'd have this:

I specifically stated I don't want to comment on what I thought of the "groping thing".
I don't understand where you got this so called "logic of mine" from exactly. But it sure as hell wasn't from me.

when a woman is raped

Who was raped at this funeral? Hmm?
Pretty sure I was taking about a specific funeral. If someone was raped there, it didn't happen on camera, I'd have noticed that, so would alot of other people.
I would have a lot to say about it as well.

when a woman is raped and wants to bring justice to her rapist but her rapist is, say, a promising sportsman,

I'm going to make this very clear.
I don't give a f*ck what a rapist does for a living, hobby, passion project or whatever.
It doesn't detract from the vile act that is rape.

I was a fan of Jimmy Saville, and adored Bill Cosby. Untill I learned what kind of men they were.
They can both burn in hell for all I care. Being talented at something doesn't make rape ok. It's not a set of balance scales.
I understand that some people feel that way, but I don't.
I don't sit there and think, "hmm well... If he has one Oscar, he should be able to get away with one date rape and four butt touches.... Anything more than that, he'd better get an Emmy first."

I sure don't give a f*ck about the career of some damn priest I didn't know existed until last week. Besides, I didn't say whether or not I felt his hand wound up on Ariana's breast on purpose or on accident.

she should be shamed for pressing charges and potentially ruining that sportsman's career

Absolutely not!
Anyone who has been raped should never ever be shamed for pressing charges.
Even when there is doubt of the validity of the claim. That's what due process is for. For legal experts and both the accusers and accused to give their side of the event and present their evidence.
Through which the guilt of the accused can be proven or disproven, based on the evidence and testimony provided.
I do very much believe in "innocent until proved guilty". This means holding my judgement until the verdict is delivered.
This means not shaming either party.
This is what I believe in. This. Is where my "logic" is based. If you don't like that, that's just too bad. I will not leap on some bandwagon of hate because it happens to be popular right now.

"silly SJW nonsense".

All that leap on a bandwagon and hurl abuse and suspicion on whomever is deemed to be wrong due to social trend. Before anyone's had a chance to review the facts, or even hear from either side?
That's silly SJW nonsense.

she should be shamed for pressing charges and potentially ruining that sportsman's career

The other thing I want to point out with this statement.
If a famous or otherwise popular person has committed an act as heinous as rape?
They ruined their own career.
They ruined their own reputation.
They did that to themselves, when they committed their crime.

I.e. Bill Cosby. Ruined his career when he drugged those women and violated them. They were all, both brave and very much deserving of seeking justice for what he did to them. I applaud them for having the courage to have done so.
f*ck Bill Cosby. A man I used to adore, until I learnt what he really was.

This thread gives us great insight into why sexual predators most often do not get punished.

Your right it really does.
I didn't have to take a side on this little discussion of a "possibly accidental groping" to be lambasted as a rape sympathiser.
A matter which I simply commented on the existence of, because it upset me that it upstaged a funeral for someone who had nothing to do with it. Based on an incident in which the purported victim, hasn't bothered to make a fuss over, for whatever reason.

Do you want to know why I haven't said either way?
Because I wasn't there. I don't know if he did it on purpose or not. I think both sides of this have made compelling arguments. But until the people that were actually involved come out and say which it was, I really can't tell either way. I'm withholding my judgement in favour of facts which have not been forthcoming.

After all this crap, I can tell you I'm struggling to keep an open mind about it.
Just because I didn't jump on the "The bishop is a molester" bandwagon, doesn't mean l think he's 100% innocent. Nor should it mean that I have to.
My being annoyed about the unbelievably disrespectful way Aretha Franklin's funeral was ignored in favour of the SJW outrage wagon, doesn't make me a misogynist pig. It makes me sad for our culture, which seems to be falling back into a cycle of narrow minded extremism.

If this the crap people who dare go even slightly against the vocal opinion face? Holy shit. I don't want to know how vile it becomes when they're actually involved in something as serious as rape.
It must be a thousand times worse than this on a good day.
It's also why I wasn't comfortable stating what I thought of the "groping" thing. I wanted to avoid all of this post I've spent hours writing.
I didn't want to feel the need to defend myself for not wanting to leap to a conclusion without facts and evidence.

I'm sure if some of you knew my predator's job you'd be berating me for interfering with his genius

You're sadly correct, there are people out there who think that way. It's disgusting.
Here's one last piece of my logic for you, bolded for emphasis.

f*ck his genius.