News Baton Rouge, La

[Anarchy]

Hi Lostforgotten,
I'm not suggesting that absolutely all are bad.
I have a step sib who's a cop, and sometimes has to keep quiet (eg they were investigating a kiddy fiddling ring in the British parliament - when I mentioned that there was (and probably still is) one

everyone else who was present had been trained virtually from birth

and
they [we]re therefore more disposed to respect those superiors. They are... less apt to
be misled into any wanton or unnecessary opposition to the measures of govern-
ment. Adam Smith

they didn't believe me.
Dirty old kiddy fiddling lord that step sib was investigating has since died and step sib can now talk about it)

so yeah, not all bad, but a great number are. It's more like a few good apples in a rotten barrel, either struggling not to go bad themselves or being ostracized fired and even prosecuted for actually being decent people

I'll offer you the examples of
Regina Tasca, from Bogota, New Jersey
Cariol Horne from Buffalo, New York and
Ramon Perez, from Austin Texas

In each of those cases, the people either tried to restrain a colleague who was beating the crap out of someone (in Horne's case, it was attempting to restrain a colleague putting an already handcuffed and defenceless 59 year old into a completely illegal choke hold, Perez refused to taze an elderly and infirm, non resisting person, whom a colleague was beating the crap out of)

those people were fired

That's the lesson - for their colleagues - if someone in blue is abusing a mundane - never intervene

just pray that you and I are not the mundanes who are being attacked.

 

[Anarchy]

Cops cannot be compared to security guards

I offered security guards as one end of a spectrum of private security people who do what cops cannot do (because they're not competent enough) or will not do (because they're too lazy, too scared and too corrupt). that spectrum goes through where cops are and continues far, far above what cops can do

but security guards arent there when I call 911. They have two different job duties.

sometimes they are - but you'll need to dial a different number. Check out Dale Brown's guys for that

and very often cops aren't - when your life depends on seconds, the cops are only minutes away - if they come at all.

and, looking at the other side
private security guards are not going to give you bullsh!t tickets on the road, or kick your door in, throw grenades around and shoot your dog, looking for plants

If the state sector cops actually adopted a fire brigade model (only come when they're called), that would be a huge improvement over what we have now both sides of the Atlantic.

Also unsure how UK cops are and what they're role is,

Both sides are based on Robert Peel's London Metropolitan police, which in turn is based on the colonial Royal Irish Constabulary, which was used to keep the rebellious Irish under the colonial jackboot.

state sector policing was widely opposed when it was proposed in the mid 19th century, and history has borne out the truth of the fears expressed back then.

incidentally, last year American cops stole more $ worth of property from Americans than criminals did.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

so yeah, not all bad, but a great number are

Sure, but the number that are is lower than the number that arent. Yes, far more than we knew and way more that we dont know about but the cops that Ive encountered, which is a lot given that other than doing drugs & speeding, ive never broken a law, were wonderful and helpful and saved my life several times. But none of it justifies killing. Frustration is high, some kill inocent and/or unarmed, i get it, but we dont need vegalanties. We just dont. Havent we seen enough blood shed in just the US let alone the world? Stop f*cking killing cops because of killing. Killing for killing. Doesnt add up to a constructive solution.

 

[Anarchy]

I'm not advocating killing anyone
quite the opposite. I wish the abuses would stop.

I'm not suggesting that anyone here (you or anyone else) is accusing me of advocating the killing of anyone - but it is an all too frequent accusation or insinuation towards anyone who criticises cops
it's a variant of the trick which Bush the Dumber (and plenty others before him) used: "you're either with us or you are against us"
it's a fallacious false dichotomy.

There have been several novels, written as dire warnings, in the hope of getting cops of various sorts to reform, by illustrating what an asymmetric war against cops and their political enablers might look like.
the two which I'm familiar with are:
Dead Link Removed
and Mike Vanderboegh's self published "Absolved", http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.co.uk/2009/10/absolved-introduction.html

The gist of both books is - stop the abuses, because when push back comes, it won't be pleasant for any of us.

The title of Vanderboegh's book, comes from this quote from John Locke (the philosopher who's ideas much of the united state declaration of independence is based upon)

“Whenever the legislators endeavour to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people, who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience.” ~ John Locke

Actual historical examples are even less pretty; I'll offer the example of these https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_IRA_South_Armagh_Brigade

That is how bad things could get if this does turn into a full scale backlash.

 

[Anarchy]

Sure, but the number that are [corrupt and or abusive] is lower than the number that arent.

actually, the few times when there has been an honest look under the corner of the rug, the mess that is hidden under it hasn't been pretty

Judge Knapp found a sizeable majority of New York cops were corrupt. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knapp_Commission

the incentives and institutional problems which lead those NY cops into corruption and abuses are the same as the incentives in police departments all around us

The Knapp commission enquiry and report is one of the few serious looks which have been made public, rather than just being a whitewash

Other looks might include the Metropolitan police porn squad, The West Midlands serious crime squad, and the enquiries into the Gardai in Donegal.

all too often investigations are just cops looking at other cops and scapegoating a "few bad apples" rather than actually outing the widespread results of the bad incentive structure that is part and parcel of state sector policing.

It's not "bad apples", the whole system contains incentives which lead many state sector cops into being abusive, wherever they are.

That incentive structure is particularly bad in the united state at the moment.

 

[Neverthesame]

incidentally, last year American cops stole more $ worth of property from Americans than criminals did.

How on earth can you possibly know this?

I get it, you hate police. Hardly news around here. Which is your thing, so fine whatever.

What bothers me, is that the more you try to explain your case. The instant this starts......

Pigs Cops are humans
reptiles politicians are humans

Even if the exalted pigs cops did protect

at work that pigs cops have

rate of the exalted pigs cops.

I lose all interest in actually reading what you are on about.
If you weren't so obviously well spoken and intelligent, it wouldn't be so bad. For me personally, this takes all the weight out of any point you try to argue. Is it really necessary?

 

[lostforgottensoul]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knapp_Commission

Im not even going to bother. Wikipedia isnt exactly a credable source.

ETA:

What bothers me, is that the more you try to explain your case. The instant this starts......
I lose all interest in actually reading what you are on about

Is it really necessary?

This I FULLY agree with!

 

[Anarchy]

How on earth can you possibly know this?

Between 1989 and 2010, U.S. attorneys seized an estimated $12.6 billion in asset forfeiture cases. The growth rate during that time averaged +19.4% annually. In 2010 alone, the value of assets seized grew by +52.8% from 2009 and was six times greater than the total for 1989. Then by 2014, that number had ballooned to roughly $4.5 billion for the year, making this 35% of the entire number of assets collected from 1989 to 2010 in a single year. According to the FBI, the total amount of goods stolen by criminals in 2014 burglary offenses suffered an estimated $3.9 billion in property losses. This means that the police are now taking more assets than the criminals.

http://ij.org/report/policing-for-profit/
Incidentally, I totally disagree with the title of that piece, loot and plunder have absolutely no relationship or similarity to the profits earned by providing freely choosing customers with goods and services which they choose to buy. Policing for an honest profit would be a huge improvement.

I get it, you hate police. Hardly news around here. Which is your thing, so fine whatever.

no I despise the institution, and I despise abusers
unfortunately the institutions of state and state sector policing encourage, enable and specially privilege abusers.

For me personally, this takes all the weight out of any point you try to argue. Is it really necessary?

I've had the opposite personal opinion expressed by another member here, so each to their own on that.

The point that I will make, is that I'm far more offended by entitled bullies, robbers and murderers than I am by name calling.

The abusers in the video that I linked to in an earlier post are very good at acting the tough warrior when they're beating, tazing, spraying and shooting smaller, weaker and often shackled victims.

Several of those shown in the video who survived were later prosecuted for "assaulting a police officer" or "resisting arrest" when the cop hurt his hand while serving and protecting the crap out of them

Perhaps if calling the poor things "pigs" might hurt their sensitive little feelings...

 

[lostforgottensoul]

Perhaps if calling the poor things "pigs" might hurt their sensitive little feelings...

Doubtful though I think it speaks volumes that you do.

You are generalizing and I am not advising the institution isnt broken, Im advising that these "dirty cops" dont need to be shot and murdered no matter what they did or didnt do. There are more constructive ways to fix this.

 

[Anarchy]

Im not even going to bother. Wikipedia isnt exactly a credable source.:

therefore it isn't true that a Majority of NYPD were corrupt?

here's the Knapp Commission report itself
https://archive.org/details/knappcommissionr00newy

It's a public document, the report by a judge lead commission - but look why you can't download it
there's an issue with it's content, perhaps it says things about police Link Removed

so, unless we have access to a university library which has a copy, we have to make do with second hand accounts

here's one - http://nypost.com/2012/08/05/new-yorks-foulest/ -I very strongly suggest that you read it before trying to dismiss what I've quoted.

 

[Recovery4Me]

And the cameras aren't really changing anything.

A family member of mine was instrumental in the R&D developing of some of the various cameras that are in use via police as well as the upgrades to many areas that involve data stream in order to secure the footage. The accountability factor becomes heightened by the intervention of overseeing agencies of internal investigations (plus higher) being able to acquire the footage which allows watchdog agencies to implement measures. Albeit after the fact...but it is in place and has served in some justice.

In general discussion -
I have known many fine police-people within law enforcement and some of their widows, and/or fatherless- motherless children as some had died in the line of duty. Sometimes in assisting off-duty, to protect- they have been injured. An friend's husband is still in the wheelchair to this day, over 30 years later electing to save another. Heroes come in many uniforms as well as bad people. So it is true- some people in those uniforms have made horrendous choices. It must stop.

I have been a victim of policeperson's choice of brutality with a life changing physical injury, so I do not treat any such violence lightly. However, I gently ask for us to remember that there are among us, a few members within this board that also suffer PTSD- from the other side of the equation or opposite point of view. See, their position is that of serving on the police force.

Thanks for listening...

 

[Anarchy]

You are generalizing and I am not advising the institution isnt broken,

you are surmising that the institution isn't broken

it may not be broken, but in the century and a half history of state sector policing, the institution has proven impossible to reform and to keep reformed; check out the article which I just linked to

New York as a one city sample, has had a massive scandal with endemic police corruption approximately every 20 years for the whole time that it has had state sector policing.

the scandal arrives when the usual tactic of sweeping the corruption out of sight and denying that it exists, no longer works - when the lie of "a few bad apples", no longer convinces people. The institution had become thoroughly corrupt long before the it reached the point where that corruption could no longer be hidden or whitewashed.

Im advising that these "dirty cops" dont need to be shot and murdered no matter what they did or didnt do.

show where I have disagreed with that - ever

There are more constructive ways to fix this.

There are
but so far police have been brutal in attacking people calling for peaceful change;
some examples to illustrate

• police damaging the hearing of police brutality protestors after Eric Garner's death, by using long range accoustic devices ("sound cannon") on them (example date and location; Dec. 5, 2014, midtown Manhattan).
• The lobbing of CS gas canisters into domestic back yards in Fergusson and the gassing of news crews over a mile from any protests, and also the threatening and beating of journalists.
• We've also had examples of police provocateurs identified trying to start violence at protests against police violence

there's a truism that if you prevent peaceful change - you don't prevent change - it just won't be peaceful

and the various sorts of police have been doing their best for several years to prevent peaceful change