Sufferer Childhood Medical Treatment Or Sexual Abuse

[scout86]

I don't even know where to start, other than I'm SO sorry you had to endure all that! That poor little boy/teenager!!!

I'm not so sure that ISN'T abuse. I can't imagine how else a small child would have experienced it. Even a teenager.... And, I can't imagine how anyone could have endured all of that and NOT been affected. Those kinds of medical procedures, it seems to me, would be traumatic for any child, no matter how well they were handled. And I think this could have been handled better.

As far as comparing traumas goes, I guess there's a natural tendency to do that. For one thing, to think that things had to be "bad enough" to justify where we're at now. I've thought the same thing myself. What happened to me could have been worse, so maybe it wasn't "bad enough". Actually, it WAS bad enough, or I wouldn't have anything to deal with now. That's all that matters. What matters most is where we are NOW, and then where we want to be and how to get there. The other thing that matters here is YOU. You matter. You deserve the help you might need to get your life to where you want it to be.

Personally, I'm impressed with anyone who found the courage to go through all that and come out the other side. And then who had the courage to start a journey towards healing and a better life. Glad to have made your acquaintance, no matter what you went through to get here!

 

[Anarchy]

Hi Mit
a few lines before I head for bed. I'm busy looking after a friend at the moment, so my posting might be light for a few days. I'll try to look in when I can.

One of the big points which comes accross in Judith Herman's book "Trauma and recovery" is the damaging effect of being subjected to dehumanization and removal of control over what is happening.

I honestly think that just experiencing one or two of the experiences which you have listed would be enough to traumatize most people. You got about 30 of them, and dehumanizing treatment and coercive removal of control from you were central to those events.

One of the tests that I like to apply to judge actions is: If a mundane individual (as compared to someone claiming special privilege) was to carry out an action - how would that be viewed?

If it was wrong for a mundane citizen to do it, then it is wrong for anyone else to do it, regardless of the costume they are wearing or the titles they feel entitled to demand others to address them by. Any other answer is mererly an assertion of "might is right".

Vladimir Lenin, observed that if might is indeed right, the only question remaining is "who, whom?"; who gets to do what to whom? Lenin's own answer to "who, whom?" was for the regime which he and Leon Trotski lead, to murder more Russians in its first two years of power, than the Romanov dynasty (hardly a beacon of human rights) which it had ousted, had murdered in the preceding 200 years.

That is how rapidly and how badly, the assumption to be able act on others without first asking and receiving their informed consent at every stage, goes down hill.

At first sight, it might appear that I've gone off on an irrelevant tangent. What I'm trying to do is to draw together the nature of what you have endured, with the traumatizing effects which coercion has on the people on the receiving end of it. For example rape, in political violence (opression, war, terrorism, prison camps), and in domestic abuse: There are common threads of one or more individuals assuming that they right to act against the consent of another individual. Those denials of humanity and of self control all lead to PTSD. Please do not feel that you need to diminish what you have endured. The details may differ, the principals and their effects are the same.

The effect is even worse if those perpetrating the de humanization and the removal of self control, gas light it as "helping" or "for your own good"

If I as a mundane individual had sprayed someon'e genitals with freezing aerosol until it burned, I would be in the same category as Cyril Smith - an abuser.

If I as an individual, brought a group of others along and demanded to be able stare at examine and photograph a teenager's genitals... my court appearence would probably make the front page of the Daily Mail and the other tabloid newspapers.

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their consciences". - C.S. Lewis (close friend and colleague of Tolkein and author of the Narnia books- unfortunately I don't have the full citation of where he wrote that).

I'm alarmed at the foreseeable nature of some of the bad outcomes. The example of the gut or thread used to secure the dressing and graft: Tie a thread or put any other reasonably tight restriction around any extremity, and it will allow blood in through the arteries, and stop blood and lymphatic fluid flowing out again. It is asking for the extremity to swell up. Idiots!

Must go

Take care and a big hug.

 

[Mit]

Thank you. Thank you for the support, and understanding and pure kindness. Hearing from people who are completely independent, say that I am not weird or weak to have been affected in some way, and that it is ok to feel that something, however unintentional was not right is...it is a very big deal.

I stayed late at work to write the previous post, and by the end I was in tears, and cried throughout the hour drive home. Today the tears are just below the surface, and I feel fragile and worn out. I'm not sure what this reaction means, but clearly recalling the events and describing them in some detail does something to me. It would seem to reinforce what you and others have suggested, that perhaps I need to try therapy again.

I'm SO sorry you had to endure all that

. Please don't be. Your comments are a huge comfort to me.

And I think this could have been handled better

. My adoptive parents were most concerned that I was well behaved and grateful to the consultants, doctors and nurses, they thought they were gods. Compliance when in hospital was drummed into me, so I never complained, but I have felt as you suggest for a long time. My parents, bless them, are in their 80s now and they have absolutely no idea how I feel or have been affected. They still talk about what a great success it all was.

One of the big points which comes across in Judith Herman's book "Trauma and recovery" is the damaging effect of being subjected to dehumanization and removal of control over what is happening.

. You are so right. Loss of control and humiliation are at the centre of my re-enacting behaviours, and provokes a very strong response. What I have come to realise is that a loss or lack of control or power crops up in many situations (at work, in contact with authorities etc.) and as a consequence I experience anxiety and panic attacks in the weirdest of situations.

The effect is even worse if those perpetrating the de humanization and the removal of self control, gas light it as "helping" or "for your own good"

. I have thought this, but never been able to voice it, because It would seem I was being ungrateful for all 'their' efforts. I think I was indoctrinated by my parents attitude to the clinicians, who could do no wrong. During outpatients appointments my mother would insist I strip completely and wait for the consultant, rather than let me drop my pants when they arrived at our cubicle. This would mean I could spend what seemed like hours naked in front of my mother in a cold cubicle until the consultant arrived, because "they were too busy to be messed around by me". I guess another example of a loss of control. I have never thought of it like this before but it does beg the question, just whose penis is it anyway? My parents, the doctors?

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive.

. Sums it up beautifully. Thank you.

 

[scout86]

I'm not sure what this reaction means,

My T tells me that those are called "feelings" and that they are ok and you are entitled to them. :hug: If you accept them!

Something that makes life complicated and these kinds of situations difficult is that, often there are no clear cut "bad guys". No doubt your parents were sincere in their trust and respect for the doctors and the medical professionals were mostly doing the best they knew to help. It sounds like NONE of them thought to look at the situation from your perspective. Which is outrageous but totally believable.I hope that anyone dealing with this kind of thing NOW doesn't face the same kind of treatment. People the age of your parents (like my parents) do seem to have that view of the doctor. Beyond question, worthy of all respect, etc. I guess they can't help the way THEY were raised...... It's just sad that you were the one who had to pay the price for their lack of understanding.

I used to train horses for a living and still work with them in my job. I run into horses with problems all the time. It's common for people to say these horses were "abused" to explain their issues. The reality is, sometimes the "abuse" came through ignorant people doing things that the horse interpreted as scary and/or hurtful. Sometimes it comes from someone who is deliberately cruel. The result is the same because the horse has no way to understand the motive, just as a child doesn't. This is one of those times when motive really doesn't matter.

I avoided therapy for a long time. What I'd say now is that I wish I hadn't. A lot of my life could have gone better than it did, if I'd been more aware of what was going on and better able to deal with it. So, I guess I'm kind of "pro therapy" because I've found it to be helpful (if now and then alarming). Your choice, but I hope you give it a try. You seem pretty self aware and like you've worked on understanding your situation, and made progress with that. There's a point where you need outside input, I think, so you can have an objective view of things. You can get some of that here, but some things are better dealt with with a competent professional.

 

[Anarchy]

@scout86 you are a difficult act to follow!

Scout has brought up a very important perspective, that real life rarely contains black and white situations, and the shades of grey can often be uncomfortably close together. There's a video somewhere of Alan Moore talking about his comic book / graphic novel original of "V for Vendetta", where he describes his favourite version, where the graphics are all in stark black and white, but the story and its characters are written entirely in shades of grey. Good people working for bad institutions and bad people doing some good things.

 

[Mit]

@scout86 and @Anarchy

Thanks you both so much for taking the time to read and reply to my posts. I feel very fortunate to have found kind and thoughtful support so quickly, and I am conscious you have both indulged me, whereas I have done nothing to help you. I hope you will let me rectify that, even though I don't profess any particular insight or experience. I re-read all the supportive posts constantly, they really are incredibly powerful and potentially life changing, I kid you not. I feel my journey on this forum has moved very rapidly, and every post seems to flag up different perspectives and moves me emotionally and psychologically into new terrain. I'll freely admit it's a bit bewildering, and I feel I need to catch up emotionally. To be frank I'm in a state of emotional meltdown at the moment. This isn't so unusual, since I gave up all medication 10 months ago, but it is horrible and tiring.

Amazingly you have both touched on things that are always on my mind.

I guess they can't help the way THEY were raised...... It's just sad that you were the one who had to pay the price for their lack of understanding.

@scout You have absolutely nailed another aspect of my care, at home, that mirrored that of the doctors . It is amazing to hear your parents had a similar perspective to mine.

real life rarely contains black and white situations, and the shades of grey can often be uncomfortably close together

@Anarchy Reading this comment triggers waves of emotion. I would dearly like to explain why, because four years ago when the consequences of not dealing with my childhood trauma finally brought huge upheaval for my family and I, and ultimately led me to this forum, I made a very similar statement to a close friend. But what happened four years ago is difficult terrain, and as much as I want to, I am frightened to talk about it, hence the anxiety.

I've emailed the NHS about therapy. Thanks for encouraging me. I'm going to take a bit of time out to try and calm down before I post anymore about myself, assuming you feel inclined to indulge me anymore. But if there is anything you would like to chat about I would welcome the chance to contribute.

Thank you.

 

[Anarchy]

Hi Mit,
Thanks, you are more than welcome.
I hit the post button too early last night, which is probably just as well, as I wasn't happy with the way my full post came out. I couldn't get what I wanted to say into a clear and succinct form. I still can't

I think tears and anxiety are a huge part of this process (they are for me!) of discovering and disarming traumatic memories, and of working through them, and their massive legacy, to decide which actions we own and which ones others own, and to come to terms with that.

I have never thought of it like this before but it does beg the question, just whose penis is it anyway? My parents, the doctors?

That is a huge insight. What was everyone around you trying to achieve? how? and for whom?

I suspect that those and other questions of when, how, who, and of course why? will need to be considered as you set out the aims of what you want to achieve. Keep your aims clear, and don't confuse the means with the ends.

Take things at your own pace and be kind to yourself (in the present and when you remember the frightened little boy and teenager who you were when it was happening).

In the short time that I've been coming here, I've found caring thoughtful and compassionate help. I may not manage to visit the forum every day, but I'll certainly be looking out for you when I do.

A piece of advice which I was given a few days ago, was to have a someone of ok intelligence and common sense (no need for hyper intelligence, or psychology or psychiatry training) who you can safely confide in, and who will identify point out any feedback loops of negative thoughts which might occur as you work through the memories and the behaviours on your own.

The person who told me that, illustrated it with an admittedly worst case, case history of one of his patients from the mid 1980s who's marriage was effectively over, but he was in denial. He'd had a bit on the side, during a business trip, and had felt guilty about it. He'd worried about it so much that he had begun to look out for symptoms of sexually transmitted diseases, including AIDS, which was still so poorly understood and hyped at the time that lots of completely unrelated things were thought to be symptoms.

The guy had ended up convincing himself that he was infected, and despite multiple negative HIV tests, had attempted suicide, on the basis that suicide would look better on his death certificate than AIDS. Despite the suicide attempt being unexpectedly interrupted, he'd required a long stay in hospital to deal with the purely medical consequences, before his psychological issue could be addressed.

The poor guy was of reasonable intelligence (middle management) had no history of psycological problems before that, nor has he had any since, he'd simply managed to worry himself into a negative spiral which even the multiple negative HIV tests could not disuade him from.

It's a worst case scenario from a 30+ year psychiatric career, but clearly illustrated a need for a trusted external anchor.

Here's a big hug, and one for the frightened young MIT too.

 

[Mit]

@Anarchy Thanks so much for this. I feel I have gained so much by way of compassionate, objective and common sense support from you, @scout86 and others who have already been generous in their time, thoughts and support. Phew! I hadn't expected to get so emotional by joining this forum. The references to me as a child, the young mit as you put it, make my heart feel like it's flipping over. I've never had this feeling, or experienced this approach before. There is clearly something about talking to the child I was that triggers strong feelings, but I haven't a clue what is going on or why.

The story of the man who convinced himself he had aids is something I can relate to. The NHS therapist I saw a few years ago said I had a tendency to catastrophise too. She was right, and much of what I feared never came to be. Sadly though the one thing I most feared did happen, and I convinced myself the consequences were insurmountable so I too attempted to end it, with tablets. I can honestly say I don't regret trying. I had sent my family away for the week, for some much needed respite from the nightmare that had unfolded around us. I stayed to face the consequences, but things turned out for the very worst and at that moment, I gave up. I am feeling a bit fragile right now because my family left earlier to visit relatives for a few days, and this is the first time I've been left alone since the overdose. We both agreed I would be ok, and I will. But some situations bring back the emotions of four years ago, and they are as raw now as they were then.

I would like to post more in response to your insightful comments - I just want to wait until I feel a bit more robust!

Thanks again, to you all. I am convinced we can all heal, given time, support, care and love. Here's to you..

 

[Anarchy]

Sorry Mit, it hadn't clicked in my shite that passes for brain that you had been suicidal. Can I point you towards pete walker's CPTSD site, which has a list of methods for dealing with flashbacks, and some suggestions for self soothing. I should have asked about what coping methods you are familliar with, much earlier.

A friend introduced me to the full length audiobook of "The mindful way through depression" which is up on youtube. Although it is primarily intended for depression, it has much wider (clinically proven) application for dealing with negative thought patterns and even with chronic pain.

You keep yourself safe. I'll be looking in here as often as I can. Take things at your own pace. there's absolutely no pressure or timescale.

Thanks again, to you all. I am convinced we can all heal, given time, support, care and love. Here's to you..

and to you :hug:

PS, Aldi's darkest dark chocolate seems to work a treat for taking the edge off my wanting to isolate.

 

[Mit]

Thanks for the pointer to Peter Walker's website, I'll have a look today. And for the tip about dark chocolate!

I choose to believe the suicide thing was a reaction to extreme circumstances. It had been building for a while, but it still took something very distressing to push me over. Although it crosses my mind, I don't really think I am at any greater risk than most others. The treatment after wasn't so great though, in that there wasn't any. When I was discharged from hospital a few days later I was given about an hour to gather myself and then taken into a side room, where a man whose role was never explained to me asked a few rudimentary questions about what was going on in my life, and then he said 'I think we'll be seeing you again'! The whole thing lasted about a minute, and that was it, they needed the bed and I wandered into the street, wearing the clothes I had slept in and wondering what next. I had no money, or phone on me. It was a surreal experience. Had I any tablets on me at that moment I would have gone somewhere quiet and tried again, I very much regretted it hadn't worked. I went into work the next day, nobody had a clue. Thinking about it now, I've never had any contact with my GP about this either, and yet I get regular reminders about my very mild asthma!

The nightmare that I had tried to escape was still waiting for me when I got back home. It was a very, very dark period. Prior to this, despite the childhood stuff and my weird coping with that for 30 years, I didn't suffer from anxiety, or panic attacks, or major depressive illness (I think in retrospect I did suffer from mild depression, but I didn't know it). I considered myself a robust and confident person. Now I am shell of that person, and get anxiety and panic attacks regularly, and over ridiculous things. I've had to do some plumbing on our heating at home recently - I have been getting so frightened that it will leak, I've sat on the floor and cried, and lay awake and worry about it at night (I did this again last night). The slightest amount of stress or pressure is too much - which isn't a lot of good in my line of work, or in everyday life.

I am familiar with mindfulness, I attended a course over ten weeks to try and learn how to use it as a technique to help control anxiety and depression. I think it has huge merit and would recommend it to anyone to try. When I have practised it, I have found it helpful. I just never seem to have the time to practice, it requires real discipline and needs to be part of a daily routine. It is something I'd like to get back to and try again, I just lack the discipline. Once the plumbing nightmare is over, I'll try to apply myself and start it again.

I didn't like being alone last night, and my anxiety was raging. But you and @scout86 and this forum really helped. Thank you.

 

[JustBe]

Those denials of humanity and of self control all lead to PTSD. Please do not feel that you need to diminish what you have endured. The details may differ, the principals and their effects are the same.

Agreed.

@Mit , it has been four decades since my initial trauma(s) and I still cannot discuss what happened. It has shaped my life and severely limited my choices. Medical Trauma is no less horrific than any other. You deserve the chance and support to heal.

We all do.

 

[scout86]

@Mit , the way your suicide attempt was handled is... well...... Insane?! I'm glad you're still around! (No thanks to them! :mad:)