Complicated case of ptsd

[Deleted member 35429]

Honestly, I just want to get the right treatment. Could I ask why Criterion H exists? From how I unders...

I completely agree. I think if the medication is causing the symptoms then, duh, that's not PTSD. But you aren't saying the antibiotic is causing PTSD symptoms. You are saying you took the medication, which may as well have been suicide pills they were so terrifying, and then felt what it feels like to be close to death.

This seems very clearly like a traumatic experience that would warrant PTSD. If you swallowed anything that put you close to death as you decribed, and you had PTSD symptoms from that experience, when of course that is PTSD. I can't believe believe people think the medication caveat applies here. The meds aren't causing the ptsd symptoms. The terror is causing them. Your mind experienced nearness to death.

I am so sorry this all happened to you, and at such an important age when college/career development/ and socializing are so important. You will pull through this stronger. Believe it.

 

[DandylionWishes]

Wow!

Looks like you've been inundated with info & argument here. I understand the impulse, however I truly hope none of it has caused you further harm or stress due to a driving need for proper "labels"

Putting all labels and diagnoses aside, here's my experience:

When I take ANY antidepressant I experience what I refer to as "The Zombie Effect"

"I'm in love!"
.../meh

"My daddy died?"
.../sigh

I recognize the emotion, I simply don't FEEL it as I should. It doesn't process within me with any depth whatsoever. I drone through life like a zombie. This goes away once I taper off of an antidepressant. I've tried so many different types of antidepressants I cringe at the thought of my poor liver!

I do not know if my pharmaceutical experience will be of any help or value to you, but thought it couldn't hurt to share that YES - I have had similar experiences and antidepressant medications were the root cause in my case.

Regardless of causes or labels - it's crummy! It sucks!! You cannot reclaim lost time, but you can always claim RIGHT NOW and future tripping is a one-way ticket to a full blown panic attack - at least for me anyway. (Oh! I'm waaay better at dishing advice than utilizing it!)


I applaud you for reaching out & sincerely hope you find help, answers and some peace of mind.

~ Namaste

 

[Scarlet13]

I think what I was trying to point out is that the antibiotic and plus Lyme disease could be causing a lingering biological reaction that mimics fear. So, like a dysregulation in the brain and gut. I have this from psych med use-my neurotransmitters are messed up and my brain is trying to heal. I can feel 'waves' of fear and suicidal thoughts because of drugs that I took years ago. This protracted drug withdrawal. I have read about smiliar nervous system effects from drugs like antibiotics that can cause essentially nervous system damage (that can be healed). I have heard this mainly with the quinolones antibiotics. The term is being "floxed" I believe. These drug effects or reactions can last a long time and are not recognized by most doctors, but are curable.

I also think PTSD is present here just from the experience being traumatic. I understand completely that feeling of being given a drug, ingesting it because you think it will help you, and then it hurts you. This drug caused fear. I am guessing that the fear caused by a substance felt paralyzingly and like there was escape. This was my experience from ingesting psych meds and withdrawing from them. I felt excruciating fear, to the point if it felt like I was being tortured or accidentally poisoned. There is no where to put the blame. But, it is traumatizing to experience fear when you take a drug that you think is innocent as prescribed.

So, it could be both. PTSD and lingering nervous system issues, or just PTSD. Also, there could

 

[EveHarrington]

I completely agree. I think if the medication is causing the symptoms then, duh, that's not PTSD. But you...

But what you describe can also happen with bad trips, and bad trips don't cause PTSD either.

Criterion H wasn't just to rule out CURRENT drug use causing CURRENT symptoms. Drug use can f*ck you up so bad....I don't think you can draw the line at recreational drug use causing a feeling of terror can't cause PTSD while other drug use not meant to get high causing a feeling of terror can cause PTSD.

There is a lot of info that we don't know as we are not doctors, we do not have insight into drug use and its effects, and we don't know fully why drug use as trauma is excluded. But for whatever reason, it is.

Im not commenting on the OP's case here, just making a statement on the issue in general.

 

[anthony]

we don't know fully why drug use as trauma is excluded

I do. Because there are other, more accurate, diagnoses that cover drug usage issues, including when the drug is removed and no longer used, yet the person still endures symptoms. None of them are PTSD related, as it is excluded from such diagnostic application.

The more common disorders associated with bad drug problems, and that are not excluded from use, are:

• psychotic disorders
• bipolar disorders
• depressive disorders
• anxiety disorders
• obsessive compulsive disorders
• sleep disorders
• delirium
• neuro-cognitive disorders
• substance use, intoxication and withdrawal disorders

If you have a bad drug trip, your diagnoses can NOT include PTSD. Instead, they will include your substance diagnosis/es, then any of the above diagnoses that accurately cover additional issues as a result. You would be most likely to have anxiety, depression and sleep disorders tacked onto your substance diagnosis.

That is why it is excluded, because there are more accurate diagnoses available for use. Every diagnosis is based on this premise, that the most accurate that covers the cause and symptoms is / are used, and not attempted to fit into any diagnosis based on symptoms alone, but factoring the cause. The cause is a substance, which makes that category of diagnoses the first place a therapist should go.

 

[joeylittle]

That is why it is excluded, because there are more accurate diagnoses available for use. Every diagnosis is based on this premise

So true. And this goes for all of them - not just mental health.

It's mind boggling to me how many people don't grasp this.

A diagnosis is no more nor less than the most accurate label for an accumulation of symptoms, based on what is known, understood, and agreed upon by the governing bodies of medicine.

If one wants to claim that they disagree with the criteria and exclusions - well, that's fine. But you might as well say that you disagree with the criteria set out for, oh, say, load limits in structural engineering. Go right ahead. But it doesn't change the fact that a lot of trained minds have spent time figuring out the best practice ratios of load-bearing, materials, and structure.

Better to try and fully understand what the industry best-practice standards are, and look for answers that way, rather than assuming that just because it 'makes sense' to you that the illusion of dying is the same as a real threat of dying.

There are so many different things at work, in the brain - but right now it is a stated fact that believing something is life threatening is not the same as it actually being life threatening.

When one is left with no answers it's understandable to want to create them.

But there are better ways to talk about this with doctors and each other besides just deciding that the definitions are wrong.

 

[Deleted member 35429]

I don't understand how you can say, as fact, that believing something is life threatening isn't the same as it actually being life threatening...with the implication being that if you were mistaken in your fear during the trauma, that your PTSD isn't valid??? Do you think the PTSD rates differ with those mugged with a fake gun vs a real gun?

How was the OP to know the drug reaction wasn't killing him? It may well have. Do you know what the most common symptoms are of dying from an ABO blood transfusion reaction? The first thought patients feel is an impending sense of death. The feeling of impending death is traumatic whether or not they actually die from the reaction.

 

[EveHarrington]

I don't understand how you can say, as fact, that believing something is life threatening isn't the same a...

But how can it be determined if the way the OP is feeling is due to the feeling of death or if it is from a chemical reaction in the body due to the drug that messed up their mind/nervous system?

I don't think the medical world is at the point of being able to make this determination.

And if the feeling of death didn't cause these symptoms, but the chemical reaction did-----then it's clearly not PTSD, right? (We can't determine this for sure, just making an argument.)

 

[joeylittle]

I don't understand how you can say, as fact, that believing something is life threatening isn't the same as it actually being life threatening...

I can say it is not the way the diagnosis for PTSD works.

That's a fact.

There are other diagnoses in the Trauma and Stressors category of the DSM 5 that address that specific situation better. More specifically.

Is the DSM right? It doesn't matter. It's what we have right now.

 

[Deleted member 35429]

But how can it be determined if the way the OP is feeling is due to the feeling of death or if it...

This of course makes sense.

What doesn't make sense to me is Joeylittle stating that believing you are going to die is only valid trauma if you literally could have died.
That's an absurd statement. I have trauma from moments where I thought I was going to die, but also from moments when I was worried I was dying but was no where near dying, both gave me PTSD symptoms because I felt the fear of death. The reality of how close I was is subjective. Stating that people don't get PTSD unless there is a literal near death experience, and that a perceived near death experience does not cause PTSD is misguided or poorly worded.

 

[anonymous]

that believing something is life threatening isn't the same as it actually being life threatening

Because it isn't. One is fiction, the other is fact.

Do you think the PTSD rates differ with those mugged with a fake gun vs a real gun?

Apples & Oranges, is what you're arguing here.
Just because the gun turned out to be fake does not mean the danger disappeared.
You are still being accosted by someone that still is fully capable of physically attacking you. They could punch you, kick you, stab you, choke you, bite you or even throw a rock at you.
Removing the gun from the scenario doesn't make armed robbery safe.

The pill the op took was in fact, not dangerous. The pill was not going to kill them.

How was the OP to know the drug reaction wasn't killing him? It may well have.

Because he's alive.
That doesn't mean they didn't go though a bad experience that has impacted their life in a negative way.
The danger was an illusion. Illusions can't hurt you.
A person mugging you can.
Being given the wrong blood type can.

These are very different scenarios from what the op described.

 

[Tinyflame]

Cross-posted with the above, just my very humble opinion, but after being through the scenarios of perceived proximity to death, actual proximity to death, perceived potential of others' deaths, and actual others'-outside-the-norm deaths, I think there is a huge difference. Apart from terror, the "actual' instances- the post-reality that what seemed like would/ could/ did happen- (or certainly couldn't???)- actually did - there was a horrific and non-computable (to my brain) reality I could not escape. There was no 'additional info', no competing explanation, no chance to go back and change the end result, or nothing to salvage to ever to 'be able' to ever change about it in the future. Very finite. And I just wonder if the shock and finality of that reality, somehow is part of the triggering circumstances for ptsd? And I can honestly say, even including true life threatening situations I survived, none of them seemed to flip the switch- until the unbelievable- and very very final, not only unimaginable & terrifying, occurred.

However, JMHE, from many years of self-introspection.