Eliminating Exposure To Ptsd For Others' Sake?

[Tinyflame]

I hate to say this, but I thought of something negative. With the caveat or attempted understanding that they say the 'Internal Critic' or something like that likes to self sabotage, and the knowledge it could be the backlash of a lifetime of messages of "keep it to yourself"/ "nobody wants to hear"/ "don't tell", and reading another post where the person said they felt there seems to be a 'trend' wherein people without ptsd seem to speak of ptsd being the 'person' themself, not just part of who they are (as in part of what they deal with, and even then there are mny misconceptions), I think I made a mistake. Or rather, barreling-on through I didn't acknowledge what I saw and know.

I remember yesterday being pretty "freaked out" trying to start, and before it, trying hard to stay 'present', I remember sitting when talking, because of all things ridiculous as it sounds my feet were swollen and hurt so much, less to sit. I touched my friend's knee with my index finger- OMG it was like I had leprosy. I should have put my hands in my pockets because I do that to everyone- I know it's awful to some people. I apologized, but I guess (re)actions speak louder than words. Because it really was like being a leper. Guess this stuff really is too gross for words. :( To be clear, he's a priest but I've known him for years, and I wasn't 'so' brave in that as a Roman Catholic you're "supposed" to do this (though many are opting not to go anymore, but supposed to). Technically though the only thing I could have otherwise done is go to someone else (eventually), couldn't fathom doing that 'in person' though. Not any time (ever?) soon. You can go to anyone though, but not anonymously any more.

I know everything is geared around people ('us') trying to heal, but I must say I wish I could manage steps without feelng like a 'freak' in the process. I think people lose respect when they think you're either a mess or 'nuts'. But, maybe it's my own pride. But in another way, I think it brings out what they really think.

Odd analogy, but I once had a client who used to (her words) 'Love me" for the few years I first knew her. Used to work my bum off there, and for her. She never knew I smoked (cigarettes). After a few years, in response to something on tv in the news, I told her I did, she never knew before that. I felt like a phony and decided to. BIG MISTAKE. In her mind (and she certainly shared it) from that point on she couldn't stand my guts. Told me I was hellbound, stupid, would recoil and even grimace seeing me. I still worked the same, but I regretted saying anything, made my life more difficult having to be there, that's for sure. At one point I think I told her I quit (smoking), lol. It didn't help. She hated me equally for being an "ex" smoker. I wonder if for ptsd it is the same? Maybe they just think 'mental illness' and God-only knows what connotations true or false, valid or otherwise. It's valid to them. There's nothing but a negative connotation to it, like Cancer too or leprosy. But people are only human, I know sometimes I've heard or have come to know things about others I can't really get past.

 

[Tinyflame]

Oops can't edit. Just meant to say as per above, what I myself have had trouble getting past has nothing to do with what in the past has often been thought of as "Catholic" vewpoints, I don't subscribe to those thoughts, everyone is equal if not better, in fact, than mysefl, far as I believe..

I am never going to let anyone know about the ptsd, they can draw whatever conclusions they wish and will be none the wiser. I will likely avoid some condemnation or stigma. And I'm not contagious, so it's ok!

I do wish I didn't offend others' sensibilities so. :(

 

[Tinyflame]

Well I wrote a post but deleted it, some self-discovery some venting, neither seems particularly useful. I can't say much with certainty, except that what still remains is I'd rather get a bullet in the brain than not speak up over something that is that wrong, and I still knew it was at 14, whether that's 'typical' for 14 or not. I was not typical. I may not have been responsible, but it was an act of cowardice on my part in my code of ethics. And the feelings did come from the circumstances, but were combined with that as well. It's not enough to see something wrong and do nothing. It wouldn't have changed anything, but not doing anything changed me.

And trust is blown, or any safe 'zone'. I'm grateful for what I've learned. And I'm sorry for who I have offended. But one thing I've never desired to be is a leper wanting inclusion. And there's no where to go but down when you're viewed as nothing but a 'nut job'.

 

[Tinyflame]

I don't know, woke up today, it's a beautiful day outside (after 2 nights of nightmares :( ). Maybe the point is (was) it would have still been irrelevant if I had spoken up, and I didn't have the means or strength or courage anyway. And I was the one that asked to talk about it, and no one else (obviously) warrants any blame for that. And no one is to blame for how they feel either, even being repulsed is fair and accurate if that's what they feel or think, others' feelings are just as important too, and whatever they think. They have a right to be entitled to it. And I said lots of stuff, not just (about) that.

Plus the 'daily joys' (sic) of ptsd. :( Plus how does one ever seperate the past from the present when I myself brought it up? I dont know what's valid or warranted or not, myself. So such a response, which I rather expected anyway, is valid. It all doesn't matter, really. Just to accept it.

Best wishes to all, and thank you (each). (((((Hugs))))).

 

[Tinyflame]

I am ashamed of myself, what I've been and what I am. Even if I do nothing wrong, it's like right to my very stem cells. :(

 

[Abstract]

Hi Junebug,

Some of this I understand as I think its normal to be able to feel the wonderful relief of an outside perspective and realise we are not who we thought ... and then to have it come back after. What I try to do is to hang onto the concept of it not being what I think (after someone has lightened the way) even if I can't feel that it is true. And then hopefully the good spirals start being more than the bad.

There is other stuff that I don't think I understand though.

It seems your friend who is a priest and councills people (they almost all do from what I gather and its a normal place of counselling for many) offered to chat to you about your fathers death and other things . If I understand correctly the following insued:
* You were speaking in the church.
* He made you feel safe enough to speak.
* You spoke.
* During speaking you touched his kneee and he pulled away.
* He gave you an outside perspective and made you realise that your thoughts were distorted when it comes to yourself and the situation and that you deserve self comppasion.

What I don't understand is where some of the following stuff fits in. Where it comes from.

this stuff really is too gross for words.

I do wish I didn't offend others' sensibilities so

I'm sorry for who I have offended. But one thing I've never desired to be is a leper wanting inclusion. And there's no where to go but down when you're viewed as nothing but a 'nut job'.

being repulsed is fair and accurate

So such a response, which I rather expected anyway, is valid. It all doesn't matter,

Can you explain what you mean or what this relates to? IS it about your father or something else? And it obviously does matter so I am not sure what you mean by it not mattering. ? Are you trying to convince yourself that it doesn't matter? Sorry if I am being dense.

Still so impressed you had the courage to speak about it! :)

 

[Abstract]

If I am not mistaken your father was being treated medically (dr's, nurses).I hope it's Ok for me to ask a few questions and give few different perspectives.

ot have been (as) 'imminent'- he had just made a will about 4 hours earlier

I really think that it is probably pretty difficult and near impossible to apply knowledge that we have gained much later accurately to an experience long in the past and when we were experiencing difficult feelings. I would ask myself if your perception changed significantly as you gained experience in your work or if your thoughts and feelings were really mostly formed as that 14 year old girl. It seems your father was an extremely ill man and had even just done his will. I think there are many reasons why someone could die suddenly in a situation like this that wouldn't have anything to do with the injection at all.

(fully 'there') and 10-20 minutes later dead (following the injection).

Am I understanding that you think the dr and or nurse perposely killed your father Junebug? I am assuming there was no arrangement with the family to not resuscitate or to withdraw food and water? What would the reason be for them doing this if there had been talk of a transplant for him? They would also have potentially been prosecuted for murder so that would be a big risk to take. What would talking have accomplished even if it is as you think? It seems the only way you could prevent something is if you knew someone intended to kill him when they gave him the injection. Did someone say something to you that indicated that?

one part of me didn't want to see him suffer, even if it meant his death and all that implied, including for my mom.

Do you think it's at all possible that this is a big part of it for you? That your natural compassion and understandable care about his and your mothers suffering and the resulting wish for him to be at peace has you turn against yourself in guilt and blame in the way that children tend to do. They feel powerful and to blame for everything and have a fantasy that their thoughts make things real.

Really sorry if I am missing something. You are brave to talk. I also hope you start a thread about this as it is stuck under a different topic and you deserve support. Maybe something like, "my father and self blame". ? Take care.

 

[Tinyflame]

Dear Abstract thank you. Headed back to work.

It is ok, I am just so sick of 'this' or 'me' or whatever or discloure resulting in the look of disgust on someone's face. I realize, 'projecting', etc etc, who knows. I'm sick of working on it, am no good at disclosure.

No, my dad just walked in, was told he should have been dead 10 years before, couldn't find what it was at first, then found cancer spread to liver, think a day later found primary source and died. Dr planned on starting chemo after weekend, nurse just doing pain management (horse dose x3). Didn't take a brain wave to wonder. No, work has not effected perspective, it's actually 'harder' for people to die than most realize.

It's ok, quite burdensome stuff this all around. Wil work on getting better again at supporting others.

XOX ((((Abstract)))))

 

[Abstract]

Hi Junebug,
Feel free to say if anything I said upset you. Not for me as I am fine but for you.

sick of .... discloure resulting in the look of disgust on someone's face.

I understand that you are feeling that disgust etc was felt but what I was trying to understand is who or when. Do you mean generally or at the time of your fathers death or is it your friend or here or what? I think its important to understand that.

nurse just doi pain management (horse dose 3). Didn't take a brain wave,.

Do you mean you think she overdosed him by accident?

I think its important to look at these things when you can as a frightened 14 year old girl who had been parentified and who was used to being blamed for everything already would likely grab the backend of any situation like this.

burdensome

Little challenge for you. ;) You aren't burdening anyone here; I would be astonished if your friend felt burdened so I am not sure who you are burdening.

Wil work on getting better again at supporting others

Maybe what you need to do is to rather work at not feeling your worth is in supporting others. I know it is hard. A lot of us hide from our pain in others pain. Not having needs of our own may be appropriate in convents where nuns are swathed in sackcloth and deny themselves all but it isn't something that we need to or should do.

And disclosure always sucks big time so be extra kind and nice and gentle with yourself. Do something nice for you. Pretend you are looking after your dog not you. Hugs if they help you.

 

[Tinyflame]

I understand that you are feeling that disgust etc was felt but what I was trying to understand is who or when. Do you mean generally or at the time of your fathers death or is it your friend or here or what?

Do you mean you think she overdosed him by accident?

Dear Abstract, thank you of course. I don't know how to answer in response following each part of the quote so I'll just try to go in order.

No, I appreciate your time and feedback, the whole thing is wearing and am sick of being affected or a broken record! Probably a meltdown of sorts, seems over-riding the "don't talk" principle very difficult. Almost like an emergency generator decides to shut everything down.

I'm disgusted solely at my self. Requiring assistance, not beng able to do it myself, the way ptsd complicates my life, not being able to fix myself, having to disclose anything, or havng stuff TO disclose.

I think my friend looked disgusted, or perhaps there is a better word but right now it escapes me. Though I try not to tell anyone anything, I have had to tell/ reveal things on occassions to others and that's when I have seen the reactions. Sometimes they are blatant. I am one to trust in the non-verbal if it doesn't match the verbal also, because I think it speaks more of the truth. What does not help is that I have a'strange' brain (no kidding :rolleyes: ), that is, I recall for example like in psych class movies when you can 'see' and identify things they show you that you weren't supposed to be able to see consciously (only register subconsciously)- nope I could catch all the details, I 'saw' them consciously. Perhaps it's due to hypervigilance? So I'm like a person who can't see the elephant in the room, but can see the fly on the elephant's toenail. Who knows, but of course one never knows the reasons or reasoning or details behind what they observe. On the other hand it usually helps me to help others more easily.

Ya, far as my dad goes it is a big relief to have had help with the perspective there. I could never understand why it seemed I had "survivor's guilt" of sorts. I think it worsened in a different way as I aged and began to grasp how profoundly it had affected people like my sister, a few hours and a 'good-bye' I believe would have helped her. However, it is debatable if he died spontaneously, knowing now what I do I suspect left 'alone' he would have had 12-30 hours, perhaps 1/2 of those uncommunicative or comatose. All I know is she kept repeating the 'dose' 2 to 3 times, what stood out was "hey, go easy- this can't be nomal?" No appropriate time in-between, no witness but me.

I only once told and asked a friend what he thought 13 years later who became a top researcher and went through terrible trauma with his mom's illness and death, he said it was possible my dad's liver was too shot to metabolize it (but not likely). He also added every day at working at the Hospital he couldn't believe what he saw occurring and felt so bad for the people who had no advocate(s). Thirteen years later, with my mom in no expressed pain and her cognitively aware, a nurse asked us 3 times if we would "like to put her out of her 'suffering'?? sooner", it took my sister saying "Euthenasia is not legal yet in Canada and if you ask us one more time I'm going to the newspaper" for them to stop. She lasted 4 days in there, about 2 1/2 days after that was said. We knew she didn't have time, knew they wanted a bed. It was surreal, actually. Another nurse who overheard came to us privately later outside of the Hospital and said "Good for you, that's your mom in there you're fighting for. " She also said a few other things I dare not repeat, of what she'd seen. But anyway, I don't think it's entirely uncommon. In today's day, you'd never have to fight for a Do Not Attempt Ressuciation (DNAR) Order, it's even required for most Independent Living residences for seniors as requirement for tenancy.

(To be clear Abstract, I'm not against a DNAR Order, I'm for it in the case of progressive illness in particular; after all, if you think about it at that point the person has died. You just have to be careful here in my country - there are 4 levels here, and only 1 affords for example antibiotics, or treatment fo an unrelated broken bone, etc. To me that's part of comfort care.)

Anyway, irregardless I am truly thankful and grateful for the help on and off the forum, and yes for reconciling this as re: per my dad's death. I don't think I was blamed for everything as a kid, but certainly internalized not wanting to add to what was going on.

Well, I don't know if it is a burden to my friend. I never intended on asking for myself when everything began, I didn't envsion ANY of this. And you see, 'Confession' is not therapy, and it's not designed to be. Not that in itself it is not therapeutic, but its not intended for counselling, and priests aren't expected to be counsellors or take on that stuff.

Haha, that part of being a nun would appeal to me- but woah would I be ugly wth no make up, lol. :roflmao:

Yes, that's funny, with my dog. :inlove: In all seriousness though I think she may have it right, maybe her and I both aren't capable of delving into this stuff but just living. I am so old starting this, by the time I get a grip at the rate I'm going I'll be dead or too old to care, lol. Sometmes I think there's been or it is just too much, for too long dealt with in other ways, that even things people can take for granted like disclosure is too much for me to handle. This took 30 years. Oye. :(

(((Sweet sweet Astract)))), thanks, xoxoxoxox.


PS Abstract, after another night of nightmares came back to add about DNAR's, and also forgot to say told my friend it is weird, I realize this is what he does but I'd never tell a friend this. And friendships (to me) are Bar-B-Q's and good times. Not this stuff and a seemingly endless run of it. And I wasn't one to talk to anyone about it, including priests, beyond the bare minimum I had or chose to, and that was at Confession with a stranger.

I know I can't pretend it's not there, but people see me differently when they know nothing at all. It approximates normalcy even if I don't feel any different. I wonder if that's the only, or best for all-concerned, option.

 

[Tinyflame]

Although a dear friend on here reminded me this morning, that good things or changes or overcoming sometimes meet much resistance or requires quite (such a) fight. Perhaps I should only be concentating on that, gratitude and try not to let doubt take it's place. Even in the name of 'protecting others', perhaps it's a greater fear than reality, a way something very good or a Big Good Step in a right direction gets derailed, whether by self-sabotage or being tempted to derail it. Or sort of like the logic one experiences when you (I) begin to feel it's better to not be around or exist. A 'progress buster' for something perhaps I can (or should) accept as something just 'good'? Big Progress considering 30 years and sort of a lousy prognosis, or severe, or stubborn, or not hopeful, case, so to speak? -Like my (sweet) dog. :) :inlove:

 

[Tinyflame]

Dear Abstract, just came back to say one last thing before this thread dies off, as I somehow missed your post ( :rolleyes: ). You said:

"Do you think it's at all possible that this is a big part of it for you? That your natural compassion and understandable care about his and your mothers suffering and the resulting wish for him to be at peace has you turn against yourself in guilt and blame in the way that children tend to do. They feel powerful and to blame for everything and have a fantasy that their thoughts make things real."

Most of this is absolutely true, with the exception of the opposite in just the last sentence, but in a much simpler way. I felt guilty (and responsible) for not speaking up (as I was told this was unwarranted); I also felt guilty for 'wishing' if it was necessary that he died to stop his pain and suffering, if that was the only way that he could, (though that was an obvious connundrum as it would cause/result in all of us- especially my mom- suffering). A no-win-situation, being aware of and privy to (but not responsible for) the fact either one or the other, my mom or dad, would experience unbearable (or at least tremendous, terrible terrible) suffering. I made, for myself, a very conscious decision (at that time), to 'God' and myself, that I would rather suffer wth the pain of the loss (as per my own loss) than watch him suffer. Despite what that 'sacrifice' meant (to my heart). I did not though think I had any control in it (that) whatsoever however (the last sentence).

I suspect this hits the nail on the head. I do not need to make a thread, I can close the file, so to speak, because of this. (Wow.)

And similarly, I think I understand, just as I made a conscious choice to 'give up' (not speaking literally as obviously that was in no one's control) as it were my dad for his sake (not sure if that is common for someone that age in general), I wonder (now, in the present) because of ptsd-related or otherwise complications whether I feel the same now as an adult. That is, being a 'burden' to others actually is not the best way to describe it (always), perhaps more aptly it would be the concern of causing others suffering of sorts- through responsibilty towards me, through greater-than-average effort, patience etc they required to give me, to cause worry or 'pain-in-the-arse-ness', my (even unitentional) hurting of others or their feelings.

I feel that the realities which started the ptsd or preceeded it are the past. Really, if the goal is to untangle the majority of where this all comes from or *all* or *most* of what's contributed, from childhood to today, it becomes an impossible task. The present becomes (is to me) the issue, but of course I realize influenced (through if nothing else ptsd) by the past. However it remains the 'present' which is the issue, or reality. (I mean in the sense, not my goal to re-write history but simply live well, or better, today).

And therefore I have answered (or 're-phrased', for only myself) my own question in post #1, the question(s) my mind and heart really were asking were: 1) can I tolerate recognizing the suffering my ptsd or behaviour (influenced by my history) causes others, and 2) can I give myself permission to isolate myself, or remove myself from relationships? And 3) in doing so, am I in fact reducing or causing others suffering? And from what I understand of what Lucasta said from the start, understanding the realities or my needs is one thing, but 'isolation' proper, or all-or-nothing thinking, is "purely destructive", and ptsd-fueled. All are very difficult questions for me to discriminate, especially #3. They are very rarely clear.

Thank you again so much Abstract, always, for your perspective, kindness, time, diplomacy, efforts :hug: . Please take care of you too :inlove: XOX.