Eliminating Exposure To Ptsd For Others' Sake?

[Abstract]

Hi Junebug. :)

I hope you start feeling a little more settled. You are brave to discuss it all.

I also felt guilty for 'wishing'

It is such a normal natural human response to wish for peace for someone suffering and for peace for those who suffer watching them. Its Ok to have felt that way.

I felt guilty (and responsible) for not speaking up (as I was told this was unwarranted);

I hope you can start letting go of all this. To have compassion for your 14 year old self. And to keep it in perspective as really there is no way of being sure what happened and your father was a critically ill man. And really often a 14 year olds concerns would often likely have been dismissed at that time.

I think your feelings about it all are very normal for a young girl with little emotional support, feeling more grown up and responsible in her life than she should have felt and dealing with such a difficult situation. And I think none of that guilt or shame is warranted.

whether I feel the same now as an adult.

This sounds very perceptive of you. I think one of the main things that ruins our lives after difficult stuff is how it distorts the truth about ourselves and the world. Like looking through mud coloured glasses when we actually have potentially perfect eyesight.

Haha, that part of being a nun would appeal to me-

Ha who says all nuns don't wear makeup! ;)

You may think nunhood sounds appealing but sackcloth, self deprivation and self flagellation are not something that is adaptive in the general world!:notworthy: Instead of it helping in relationships it does the opposite in many ways! I think equal sharing and caring and support and being supported is the very best way for these things to be when possible.

I do believe in your wonderful empathic skills Junebug. And I am similar too. In the past I was practically just empathy and very little else! But for me I have had to accept that when I am perceiving things through the mist of intense emotions sometimes it ends up being projection of my own fears and feelings.

And as skilled empaths as we may be, we actually don't have the ability to mindread. I find sometimes I need to listen to myself regardless but sometimes if I am just using it to torment myself it helps to remember that I don't have that power. Otherwise I can cause myself so much unnecessary pain. So it might actually be OK to give yourself a break and accept that you don't know for sure what happened.

And when it comes to your friend and other supports it would be pretty amazing if you didn't project some of all the self hatred and judgment and lack of worth. When we are struggling that much with these things it tends to seep out.

I would imagine you were much more likely to be seeing possible concern, distress, sadness , puzzlement, confusion rather than disgust from your friend. And its OK and normal for people to feel those things if we tell them about difficult experiences. We don't need to protect others from their feelings at all times. We don't even have a right to do that.

If the flinching was part of what you are concerned about then I think flinching would be a perfectly normal response in the context with him a priest and you a woman. And the only way it would cause offence is if he had a history of sexual abuse and it was a trigger! And even then it would not be your fault as there is nothing fundamentally wrong or bad about doing something like that especially since it was done as a sign of innocent friendship. Flinching is probably more often a sign that someone is a little self conscious or has different personal boundaries.

Do you think it is not so much that you feel a burden but that have a phobic reaction to anyone feeling so called negative feelings in response to you? Such as sadness or anger.

1) can I tolerate recognizing the suffering my ptsd or behaviour (influenced by my history) causes others, and 2) can I give myself permission to isolate myself, or remove myself from relationships? And 3) in doing so, am I in fact reducing or causing others suffering? And from what I understand of what Lucasta said from the start, understanding the realities or my needs is one thing, but 'isolation' proper, or all-or-nothing thinking, is "purely destructive", and ptsd-fueled. All are very difficult questions for me to discriminate, especially #3. They are very rarely clear.

I somehow wonder how many of your PTSD symptoms with your personality would impact others badly. I really don't think you need to feel like that. I suspect the main one would be thinking that you don't deserve anything and not sharing and letting the other person take responsibility for their own feelings and selves. I can't imagine you raging or anything else like that. I really don't see how number one is relevant actually. And therefore 2 is really not valid then. You always have a right to choose things for yourself of course but it would be sad to do.

And 3 sounds like you have great insight here. Real relationships are give and take.

And it is also sooo impressive to see how you have grown and are talking these days! When for so long you never did.

 

[Tinyflame]

Aw Dear Abstract, so much I could say, and yes- you're awfuly empathetic! :) :hug: Am just a little exhausted from work to navigate the quote function, but so much I think you said is true. Though I till feel ridiculous 'talking'!

Thank you yes, I can let the other go, truly. :) It reminds me of a movie I saw years ago, these people in therapy or something, one woman loses her baby in a plane crash, a guy re-enacts a car crash (with her in it) and whatever she is holding goes flying. In other words, at that moment she can TRULY see and believe there was nothing that would have changed it, nothing she failed at or with.

In regards to self-worth, yes I'm sure I ooze lots of the opposite! But I've been very adept at hiding a lot, it's like living a double life. And yet, I prefer the double life or at least the absence of any one aware.

Oh God no, my friend is not 'pervy'!

If anything, I can't imagine anyone tolerating this stuff. Even if that is reflective of my lack of self-esteem that is how I feel. I was thinking before, I don't expect family to be 'obligated' to love or support me, or find positive qualities in me, but I do think being family the standards or 'requirements' I expect are the lowest, most forgiving. But I have not found my family to be, so I don't (ever, I guess) expect any one else to.

Also, it screwed me up royally in the trust department when the one person I really thought I could, it turned out the opposite. I don't know if I can ever overcome that fear. The expectation and/or doubt always remain. Same with all that I have revealed, it frightens me. The consequence(s).

I know I am near-phobic (or horribly triggered) by other's rage, 'feels' like it will be followed by violence. Making others angry or displeased I think serves as further proof to me or a reminder that I am a burden. Which I'm likely already thinking anyway, which leads to regret speaking up in the first place.

I think I became a burden after I hugely fell apart, about 5 years come July. It was one thing to be totally stripped, powerless, devastated really, (not withstanding physical pain also, etc, exhaustion). At that point or shortly after I can recall feeling totally vulnerable, powerless and voiceless. Totally stripped. :( The second challenge no one speaks much about, was that after actually surviving it (I don't know how), how does one deal with any witnesses to that? :( I think I was raised like men are: when I hear people say "you know how men are, they don't talk about their feelings, they try to fix it (etc)" and such, I think (secretly) , "Well ya!", because I think as they do. It is terrifying to be on the other side of the fence. I don't know how to do it, and I don't do it well, or gracefully. I would rather never have to.

I in many ways am like my own dad that I criticized for not communicating (in words), for expecting the worst, for being genuinely kind and open to everyone but trusting no one.

And of course, the more I work on on myself, the more defects I find, or more frustrated I become with what I can't change, or limitations of my body or self I must but hate to accept. So I do feel like a burden. I have found many others who've suffered physical disabilities or illness who feel the same.

I just learned something today though, that suicidal ideation starts with a thought, then an emotion, then another thought fueled by that emotion, and the downward spiral increases and continues. That makes total sense to me. Even about speaking up, or asking.

Also, I am being a bit more aware or a little less harsh on myself as regards dissociation. And how it relates back to being a kid. And being independent. I am terrified (always was) relying on anyone. The only time I remember being terrified as a (very small) child was getting lost in a store, or being required to 'wait' for someone when they then didn't come or came very late. I was 4 then (not an isolated incident). But, left to myself, I would walk home, even if it took a few hours as long as I knew where to go, and I wasn't very afraid. Or, at 5, I remember hearing a sound at night in the house, I literally put a pot of boiling water on if someone came in (figured I could throw it. Whereas now, at 44, I'd likely hide under the bed, OMG :( ). My neighbours, all older boys, would call my dad apparently (when he was home and they were alone!) Also, I recall even feeling better when a 'bad' date I was on wanted to hold hands (constantly). I realize it wasn't 'me' (as in wanting to give a mixed message), I realize now I was dissociated a bit. Would have been thankful for anyone who could point out where to go! Agh! There's freedom in learning but in other ways it scares me, who I've become or realizing how I always was? :(

I did, however, see a newspaper puzzle quote today, that said something like "A man writes one story in his diary, and then life writes another story", or something similar. Which made me feel better, that it's a 'normal' function of each of our lives. I never wrote ptsd into mine! :eek: Lol. Nor did any of us, I am sure.

Sweet sweet Abstract, thanks for your kindness and support. I hope you are feeling a bit better too. :hug: XOX.

 

[Abstract]

I love this last post Junebug. It shows so much of you behind all the other stuff.

 

[Tinyflame]

Dear Abstract, yes it does make a bit of sense to me. (A 'BIT'! Eiy, lol). Seriously though, thank you always. :hug:

Something came to me tuesday, and again today. I thought it's like finishing a race, you (I) have to 'push it'. I don't mean my 'usual' 90%-effort-on-0%-energy, I mean to try to put the effort in at 'the end', to know it's going to hurt, it might not be pretty, and I can just do the best I can. If it's not as I hoped or I am afraid, or worry abut the future or present, I hope I can go along with what arises and still 'keep still', and not 'hope' I didn't exist.

Because what I wrote is true, but it's sort of a negative way to look at things. I thought today, not everything about being a child is bad to bring in to adulthood, I'd rather trust and such, or think as positively as I can of others also, to 'forget' about not trusting and such. To be grateful, to try not to panic. Like I was reminded today, not everything always turns out the worst. That is a relief, and reminds me also of how many times I potentially miss acknowledging that with the same intensity as the difficult stuff. I think, in fact, it precludes (for myself) proper gratitude, gratitude in the sense of true acknowledgment. And true acknowledgment should take into consideration true facts and blessings.

I am really too tired to try not to be vulnerable. I seemed to have burnt that capability out. And I've spent so much energy putting out the fires of my thoughts that by that time are entirely self-deprecating and worst-case-scenario and totally self-destructive. I have to learn to stop them at the ember stage. I should just be SOOOOOOO thankful and amazed for everything. Instead I find ways to fear I've done something wrong. :( And blame myself, for what at this point I'm not even quite sure. So much is fear, self-hatred, worry, truly not feeling entitled. So I am going to start at the beginning being thankful for what I've received, even if I'm not "entitled". Seems all the more reason to be thankful. It seems terribly ungrateful to de-rail everything, if for no other reason it really seems like it says fear is bigger than God, bigger than faith, bigger than the kindness of others, bigger than others' efforts, and well- it (I) am hopeless in every way, I suspect. I have to learn to get rid of lousy stuff or thoughts through trust, or learn how to trust. Even if the 'trying to' hurts a lot and I make a mess of it.

(((((Still-always-sweet-and-dear Abstract :) )))) :hug:

 

[Tinyflame]

You know, I've spent so much time and effort to avoid suffering -like a turtle without a shell it was too painful- I've caused myself and others more. :(

If someone even asked me today why 'not existing' should be the (obvious-to-everyone) preferable choice, I wouldn't even have an answer. Just 'because', (and presuming it's self-evident?)

I think I learned today it's 'ok' to just say it like it is. Like, as a kid you can say "I'm scared", or whatever it is you feel. As an adult I always felt that put a sort of 'pressure' on, in the way it inferred (to myself) I wasn't handling it, or I was putting responsibility on someone else to, if I said it. Or just too weak . Which of course was my fault. And it made it worse to acknowledge it (to myself). But it doesn't, it's just real, the truth, like kids speak.

 

[Tinyflame]

Since it was brought to my attention that I was not 'at fault' for not speaking up at 14 when my dad died, I've found a 'belief'. He had been extremely ill (but not diagnosed) on-and-off when I was a child- had a few close calls and I knew from my mom it was very serious- he actually had a 'spontaneous remission' (without treatment that is) a year or 2 before. But the 'belief' I have is, if I speak up about myself in any way or ask for anything I'm adding stress and virtually contributing to someone's demise. And they won't stop me, so it's up to me to fix it, the problem and to be invisible or go away- fix the burden on them. Especially if it seems like they'd want to tell me to not say anything or ask them for anything but they feel they can't or won't or in some way are obigated, such as my sister (though that wouldn't be wise, depending), my friend because he's a priest, other friends who are too kind or in essence a 'captive audience'. When I do I feel like I've done a terrible thing.

 

[Abstract]

it's 'ok' to just say it like it is.

Good for you Junebug!!! :):tup: Back with more later....

 

[Tinyflame]

Mercies Abstract, I hope so! :rolleyes:

A dear person here referred me to more material on how to identify and change beliefs. The change part is difficult, feels like I missed a critical class on so much of this stuff. :(

Perhaps however God works in strange ways, (or God knows I'm strange! :rolleyes: ). Yesterday it was pouring here, I have to make about 14-20 trips on foot at work, I'm not kidding at one point there was a DUCK (wth a green neck/ plus blue- Mallard-?) walking fast down the lane with me at work! (Thought, "hey COOL- a DUCK!"- I'm in the city). Needless to say, I only saw one last week- never seen a 'real' one otherwise. "Raining ducks"!, lol. :). Well told a patient at work to make them laugh (God knows I was), as I'm washing my hands they said, "that means 'it is not as you've feared, your friend is truel and faithful' " from some 'animal totem meanings' book. So that was kind of funny, not solicited.

But maybe these steps or trying are 'good' things, hopefully not harmful to others either. I guess, also, never telling anything leaves no room for it to be questioned. I lived a long time with what I had no idea couldn't 'not' be true.

((((Abstract))))) :hug:

 

[Mercy]

But the 'belief' I have is, if I speak up about myself in any way or ask for anything I'm adding stress and virtually contributing to someone's demise.

Dear Junebug,
I hope this is an 'open' thread. I have read all of it and I hear you. I have similar concerns about disclosure. Abstract, your responses have been right on the mark.

For a long time, I have felt that disclosure on some level gives the person enough information to decide whether or not they would like to become good friends. In one way it was self protective. I didn't want to become a good friend with a degree of mutual attachment only to have them discover that I had been hiding my 'real life' from them. At which point, they would walk away in disgust, not about the truth of my life, but because I had manipulated them to become friends through cover ups and not trusting them with my suffering. This has happened a few times.

Other disclosures have brought censure. I just got a letter from my brother's wife about something I was beginning to say a little after my neice's wedding shower- bad timing!! She asked me to keep my PTSD to myself. In her family things like that are private. She was kind and reassuring me of her love, there was no intent to harm, just to set boundaries. I'm not too good at that.

My brother is total denial. At a point in therapy, I wanted to cease communication with my mother all together. I had to tell him about the pattern of punitive retribution from the organization that my therapist's supervisor, a nationally known forensic psychologist, had said was already in place. I felt the need to tell my brother since he would have been the next target.

The targets of retribution were all my mother's most loved people in her life, her brother and sister on her birthday and my father, the only man she had really loved then her ex-husband. The advice I got was that this a pattern and my brother would be next. After I invited my sister-in-law to come listen too, I disclosed some of what had happened to me and the pattern of punitive retribution. He was angry and called in a few days dictating that I was never to speak about my grandparents to him again. How dare I ruin his good memories! He was in denial. I caved. Much harm followed for me.

I thought that after all the people involved died, he wouldn't need his denial. Then a flash of truth could happen. Nope.

I am so lonely. My husband is dismissive or critical. "We've spent twenty years and a lot of money on this and nothing has changed." Support and compassion seem to be almost frustrating for him. He is fed up and worn out. I can ask for a hug without words. He can maintain the hold for about 30 seconds. I am so tired of being alone in pain, flashbacks and SI. EMDR is helping slowly and my T is good so I should be content with that.

But isn't it a common human trait to want/ need to be understood and accepted?

 

[Tinyflame]

Oh Mercy, I wish I could take away that feeling of loneliness, and if it's like I experience it's a different kind almost, a deep-seated feeling. :( And I think the pain is greater if it is from someone you love, their words or actions have the power to hurt more (naturally).

I suspect it is a common need, actually. Until or 'if' someone gives up on it.

I can relate to the loss or feeling of being deceitful from not sharing, yet not wanting to. My biggest trouble comes from that belief specifically, in that I know it just relates to my dad being ill as a kid on-and-off, other drama not of my making, 'regular' stress and pressures of life- I didn't want to add to it, the 'cups' were already full. Even now asking I feel like it coincides (or should) with a "What now?" response at best, a pain. At worst, that it will harm someone else's heath physically (literally).

And yet, I was thinking how truly fortunate I've been, in the way of being around or helped by, a handful of the kindest people. What I mean by that is way-greater-than-average kind and gentle to me. Three I can think of, about 3 more that came through my life last few years, (and that's without including those here on the forum). Really a blessing. But then, just when I thought that, I slept and had night terrors all night. I spent all night in the nightmares 'running', and they involved everyone was gone anyway, and most of all I couldn't say goodbye. I would ask for directions, but no one would give them, in my nightmare they would say, "Do you know where (such-and-such) is?", and I'd say "No", and they'd leave it at that. I was left feeling because of myself, I couldn't say good-bye, and others would think it was because I didn't care or appreciate them or what they'd done. But I also distictly felt like I didn't want to go through the pain of goodbyes. Anyway, silly/ stupid nightmares. :( Fear of the future I guess, even the future of a day or two.

Mind you, I had a huge trigger, bad memories really, yesterday, it reminded me of how bad things were and how I felt and why I broke down to reach out. The sheer desperation. But that was then, and 'then' has passed.

(((((((Dear, sweet Mercy)))))), xoxox, :hug: .

Maybe in a way too, you have to value yourself to ask for help (for yourself)? Or put some 'worth' on your 'value.

:hug:

 

[Tinyflame]

I was thinking in my nightmare I thought "It's (I'm) too late to say goodbye". So maybe that's the mind's way of working on this stuff. Past losses and/or future fears, or the present, all jumbled in to one. Ugh.

(Though even I thought- "What did I eat last night?" :( ) Just stuff that comes up after other stuff is re-felt or becomes dug up, I imagine.)

 

[Tinyflame]

Hmm, strangely enough it doesn't bother me today about all this ptsd business- how odd. It crossed my mind, maybe it *can be* or 'is' (at least at times), not a big deal (lack of any other term) for others, either, as regards dealing with me and 'it' coming along part-and-parcel with myself (having it)? I wonder if that could be? Wow, strange. :confused: Maybe it's a question of distortion in my own perspective, in fear, worry, feeling, and emphasis?

And, with true due respect to all who have had awful or unspeakable experiences with the thought of a Higher Power or religion, I finally figured out today what helps/ helped me a lot. I've thought of it as "God helps everyone and helps those who can't help themselves most of all, or first". So it seems only natural that I look(ed) to that when I recognized my own limitations, and knew everything that I exhausted.

Plus I thought, really I'm not 'entitled' to heal, and I don't mean that in a negative way. Rather if or to what degree is more of a gift than an entitlement. That is, no different to everyone who has whatever things they have to persevere with or go through (and there are so many things) in life.

And really hugely weird, I'm not sure if I would change stuff. Sure, in an ideal world, but life isn't that way. That defies (my own) common sense, it's doesn't cognitively make sense, and I'm not a martyr either. Just that- I really don't have the words- in my heart I know, or feel, it's 'right'.