Guilting Someone Into Not Suiciding! What Are Your Thoughts?

[freakofnurture]

@unalaa: If they were just stating their feelings and then offering you respect and support, whatever the way you choose, I'd agree with you. But people don't act like that, normally. They cry and put on a show of feelings that.. wait for it... guilt trip you into staying.

People can manipulate you, albeit unconsciously, and then they do actually (try to) make you feel something, and you have to be very conscious and/or a heartless bitch to not fall for that.

EDIT: How is it that in movies, scenes where people say good bye to a loved one at their death bed are always so full of clichés about 'I'll always be there, even when I'm gone' and 'You're so strong, you'll go on without me'. But when someone dies from depression, suddenly those words don't com up anymore and they're called selfish.

Depression is a disease. It's as selfish to die from depression as it is to die from cancer. It happens and you have to deal with it. Because shit just happens.

 

[anthony]

I'm blaming them for making me feel like am damned to suffer till age 80 because I have no right to cause them the grieve of losing me.

That is negative thinking at its best, which produces exactly what you produced, irrational thoughts.

You have two options at the end of the day, the same as every single person with PTSD has, being:

1. Wallow in the misery of trauma and symptoms and use that as an excuse to justify piss poor behaviour, or
2. Take control of your life, educate yourself on trauma and therapies, identify your negative emotion and work through them one at a time, taking back control of your life and enjoying what life you have left.

 

[freakofnurture]

Now, seriously. There is a point after which people don't react to 'don't be such an emo' anymore. It's a good mental strategy to get out of self-pity, just like fight songs; but serious suicidal ideation is beyond self-pity.

Some people lose the battle. Don't go and call them selfish or weak or a coward, too. That's disrespectful and they don't deserve it.

 

[anthony]

It is depression... and there is nothing wrong with that. Whilst suicide is a tragedy, even after death, sorry, the person still committed a selfish act. Having depression is not selfish, but taking your life to ease the pain or torment is selfish in nature. Depression can be treated and managed, suicide cannot be undone.

 

[Philippa]

Isn't it selfish of the people around you to want you to keep on suffering, just so they don't have to go through a grieving process?

A person isn't a pet that you keep.

This is what I was getting at as well, and how I think about it.

It seems vastly selfish of the family and 'friends' who don't mind treating you like dirt while you're here, but don't want you to leave because then they'd have no one to treat like dirt anymore.

Of course, that's not the case in some families, but I think it's clear from the stories on this board that it is fairly common and realistic that this is what goes on for many, many people.

Are they obliged to carry on being used as a punching bag for someone else who is too much of a coward themselves to face their own issues of abusiveness, just so that person can be spared grief. Are people like that worth living a life of pain for just to spare them some?

Maybe if people treated their loved ones better in the first place, they wouldn't get to the point where they are in that much pain they feel that is the only option!

Just some food for though.

When I was suicidal, all I could see were my family members going on about how much my sadness was ruining their happy day, and how sick they are of me being sad. It seemed very clear who it was all about...and it wasn't me!

My father cried the day I confessed I felt this way...his words were "You can't...it would all be for nothing". Now I interpretted that, in my low state at the time to mean "I would lose my investment", which is how many parents in society see their kids.

He'd tell me "we want you here", and then when I was here he'd tell me "we don't want you here" (the day he kicked me out...after hitting me so hard I had whiplash and knowing that I'd just been raped and was seriously depressed.)

Kids aren't an investment! Yes, it takes a lot of money to raise a child, but they are much much more than that.

Is that not selfish also?

 

[Philippa]

No one can make you feel anything. They can tell you how they feel and you can choose how you respond, if you choose to respond at all. The choice both starts and ends with you.

This is true. We give our power away when we say things like this...but at the same time, I can see where freakofnature is coming from. When you are in that fragile state of mind, and someone says something with a tone in their voice that is slightly manipulative...even if the words aren't, and it is implying that you are horrible if you leave behind your family...then that can make a person in that state feel tremendously guilty and bad.

 

[Philippa]

Good for you to come to that conclusion and keep on living.

I wanted to die because I had no right to live and everybody hated me and would be happy if I were gone.

I didn't kill myself for the selfish reason of wanting to write more stories and feel happy again; f*ck what the world thinks!

Unfortunately, this is the thinking when we are seriously depressed. It may not necessarily coincide with reality, but when all you are seeing around you every day is people who are obviously put out by your very presence in their lives, it's hard not to think this way as well. People want happy people around them. If you aren't happy, then they don't want you around...that's just harsh reality.

From the point of view of someone suffering it's very easy to start thinking the world would be better off, that we are just a burden on our loved ones, and they'd be better off.

Is it self-pity...sure, but how can someone NOT feel pity for themselves in that state? It's an extremely painful state to be in and no one understands. All they do is tell you how much of a pain you are to them. Why wouldn't you draw that conclusion then?

When you are suffering that much and all your parents care about is you getting a stupid JOB, then it's not hard to start thinking they don't really care about you as a person...so why stay? This was my experience anyway.

 

[freakofnurture]

Coming to think about it, I just accepted a negative connotation of the word 'selfish', that I really don't agree with. It's not bad per se to be selfish. Everything we do, we only ever do for selfish reasons, even donating blood or a kidney to a stranger. It's motivated by fundamentally selfish psychological mechanisms that make it feel good and self-esteem raising to help others.

So, yeah, I agree, all behaviour is always selfish, including suicide. And if someone has, after much deliberation and suffering, decided that they can't be assed to dig themselves with their bare hands through another mountainous massif that others so nonchalantly call 'a normal day', I'll be happy to hand them two bottles of vodka and a deep freeze unit.

Edit:

He'd tell me "we want you here", and then when I was here he'd tell me "we don't want you here"

That sounds so familiar.

A suicide in the family is such a stain. We can't have that.

 

[Philippa]

Coming to think about it, I just accepted a negative connotation of the word 'selfish', that I really don't agree with. It's not bad per se to be selfish. Everything we do, we only ever do for selfish reasons, even donating blood or a kidney to a stranger. It's motivated by fundamentally selfish psychological mechanisms that make it feel good and self-esteem raising to help others.

So, yeah, I agree, all behaviour is always selfish, including suicide. And if someone has, after much deliberation and suffering, decided that they can't be assed to dig themselves with their bare hands through another mountainous massif that others so nonchalantly call 'a normal day', I'll be happy to hand them two bottles of vodka and a deep freeze unit.

Edit: That sounds so familiar.

A suicide in the family is such a stain. We can't have that.

Exactly.

Everyone is selfish to some degree...the suicidal person and the family that want them to stay alive even if it is unbearable for them.

People place such a judgement on being selfish, but it's just another aspect of being human...and those people who call a person who suicides 'selfish'...I have to wonder how many times a day they act in a way that is only considering themselves and no one else.

Good point about the reasons why they can't have a suicide in the family. Social status, fear of judgement from their peers and the possibility that it will reflect on them somehow...these are all unspoken reasons behind not wanting a family member to leave...it's not all purely because they love and care about the person.

Trying to control another human being is not a very caring thing to do in the first place, and that is what guilt trips are...an attempt to control another person.

 

[unalaa]

@unalaa: If they were just stating their feelings and then offering you respect and support, whatever the way you choose, I'd agree with you. But people don't act like that, normally.

Agreed. We have zero control over what others do or say.

Yes, they will try and sometimes succeed in manipulating, guilting, or try to make you feel something. And yes, you have to be aware and conscious to avoid that minefield. It takes time and energy, energy that we might not have because of being tired, depressed, anxious, or otherwise symptomatic.

Sometimes we are so tired of it all its overwhelming.

Yes, shit does happen, and it affects us. We're all here because we were affected by a traumatic event(s) in some way that has affected our day to day existence in a profoundly negative way.

Depression finds it easy to take root in us when we are at our lowest. If depression is a disease like cancer, then like cancer it needs to be treated actively and aggressively to put it in remission.

It's the depression that needs to be fought, not other people and what they think.

I have to fight that battle daily, too.

 

[Tinyflame]

I think that when it comes to the topic of suicide people can easily lump all persons into one category, although there is a very large difference between, for example someone killing themself to avoid consequences (such as Hitler), vs the majority of people (as described here) experiencing unbearable pain.

It is estimated that greater than 80 or 90% of people who do are suffering depression, and most commonly feel they are a burden, have no purpose, and importantly- also seem to lack the normal 'fear' of death (or the actions required to take their life) than most people do who don't experience feeling suicidal.
Also, being drunk or on drugs at the time increases the likelihood hugely, as do addictions like gambling- it's estimated the rate of suicide with a gambling addiction is around 600X more likely than the average population.

But what hasn't been said here, I don't think, is that it also involves constricted thinking. How anyone would view suicide at any given moment is one thing; unable to think clearly or to process thoughts, confusion and dissociation also being present may interfere with an ability to reason logically. The important part is the person believes it.

No, I don't think 'guilting' is useful, because oftentimes people are wracked with guilt already.

I think when the person has healthy relationships, the pain it would cause others is a valid one and one is aware (in the 'saner' moments) that it is a selfish action. However, when only negative relationships are present, of course that is not viewed as a factor.

More often than not, it is like an emotional disease the equivalent of cancer- by common sense no one would 'choose' to be in unbearable pain. It is a battle, and sometimes the battle is lost.

Though on paper it is true we are only responsible for ourselves or how we react, the real problem becomes how does one learn to manage and cope better, and to fill their lives 'with' a reason to live then, or to bear the pain, or to alleviate it, or put it to use. Because basically suicide does occur when the stress becomes greater than the ability to cope.
Even physical illnesses (eg heart disease) or medications can cause SI.

I think the term " (to) kill 'yourself' " is in many ways a misnomer. More often depression etc is what kills the person, I don't believe at the moment most people have the ability to reason as they 'normally' would. Just as if your clothes were on fire, you throw yourself out a window.

I work in Health Care, and surprisingly it is not unbearable physical pain which causes (at least directly) people to become suicidal; they usually express it's fear of the unkown, fear of becoming a burden, fear that their care and welfare will be left to people who don't care about them, and emotional pain such as rejection from their familiy or spouses.
And btw, most people wouldn't lose much sleep over others who do kill themself- they are the first to judge that those lives were not as 'worthy' or of as much quality as theirs (I hear it almost everyday), right down to 'population control' reasoning/ justification.

I have been on different sides of it: have done it (selfishly), have tried not to do it (unselfishly), have fought it when I didn't know how to any longer, have had a relative with it, have lost wonderful people to it, have been present to people who have come out of it. But no words describe what it feels like to have it.
But, neither are their words to describe if someone tries to help you to get through it and try to 'live', either. That's much more difficult for them and for you, to keep trying.

 

[BloomInWinter]

I've lost patients and family members, friends to suicide.

I don't think in terms of 'selfishness' versus 'selflessness' with suicide.

Just human suffering, which becomes intolerable to the point where self-harm overrides the instinct for self-preservation, the connection to other human-beings, and the survival of one's offspring.

Some hit that level and self-harm becomes a means of expressing pain. Whether or not there is a desire for permanency isn't the issue when you're the paramedic. If they were a threat to self, I'd try just about anything to get them the help they need.

...and I do not believe it is selfish, either, to express the pain we'd feel to a loved one if they hurt themselves. How will they know it would hurt us if we don't speak of it? We're entitiled to speak up if someone we love is at risk.

If they were standing on the tracks and I could hear the train whistle, I'd never just turn and walk away and let it happen.

Now, the alleviation of suffering is a great area where I believe loved ones can make a difference. We can't lift someone out of their depression, but we can ease suffering and allow them to have a human being just standing with them.

...and many are suffering for lack of any human connection. So....why not focus on what is possible?

I do believe that if I am aware of someone's suffering, I have an opportunity to try to assist.

I've never regretted trying. I have regretted not doing enough.

I do think it is unfair to demand a loved one be silent and do nothing as we spiral down. I may feel self-destructive, but I have no right to take anyone down with me.

Demanding silence is asking them to be complicit in a crime that only they will do the time for.

That is where a firm boundry needs to be drawn for myself. If someone won't accept help, won't help themselves...well, I'm not going to sit idly by. Then, time to turn it over to the professionals.

I do wish some people had called us far sooner. Body pick-up is very traumatizing to us rescuers and it kills a bit of our humanity with every call.

Eek....thought I was ok with this thread but the ER mems with ipecac, NG tubes, and activated charcoal are giving me issues.

*sadness*