How Do You Know Something Is A Problem?

[scout86]

How do we know information is up to date or accurate,

First, when he & I are talking about this, the information is about anything and everything. He's big on the idea that we all have our own road map of reality. Everyone's map is different. None of them are "reality", they are all just maps. Which means they might be more or less accurate. They may have blank spots. There might be a place on one edge where it says "There be monsters here". One person's map might actually SHOW a flat earth, etc.

How to we know it's up to date and accurate? Well, maybe we can't know, for sure, whether it's the MOST up to date and accurate, or whether or not it REALLY reflects "Reality". But, we examine the map and question it. "Where did this information come from?" "How did I come to believe this?" "Who actually said that?" etc.

For example, my mother was a narcissist. I was a "difficult" baby. (Check out Casey's descriptions of the trials and tribulations she's had with her little guy for a pretty good description.) I'm quite sure we never bonded at all. The only feelings I'm ever aware of connecting with her are apprehension, fear, dread, failure, etc. So, when I had to deal with her, I tended to be coming from a place of OMG! My T got me to examine this. Where it might, at one time, have been true that she was dangerous, THEN, at that time, she was a frail little old lady. (She's dead now.) Was it true that I needed to fear her? Well, actually, no it wasn't! That was kind of a revelation. She could still mess with me, in some ways, but the nature of the threat was totally different. She could no longer kill me. I was no longer dependent on her for anything. The old map wasn't accurate. But, there's a lot I don't know, and might never know, so I'm not totally sure how accurate the map is. Does that make sense?

This is why I would like to see separate threads on giving away power or defining power and defining a lie.

I like that idea too. If you start one, I'll be there! :)

Major problems?

They interfere with normal functioning.

What's "normal"? :D

 

[shimmerz]

Not being able to recognize problem causing behaviour of others', of ourselves, is, in and of itself a very large problem. So a problem itself may be the core of the issue because one doesn't understand what a 'problem' IS. At all. Denial. Problem? There is no problem. There can't be a problem.

If the script in the head is 'there is no problem, there can never be a problem'.... we can be so focused on that while our world comes crumbling down around us - while still repeating the chant of 'there is no problem here'.

Perhaps what he is getting at here is a possible loop in the head. A conflict of great proportions. If there IS a problem, and one is so focused on denying that ANYTHING can be a problem - then one gets trapped in their own mind. Is it a problem if one does not see that there is a problem? Ever? Even when it is obvious that there is?

Just go ahead and read my diary. That will learn you how the thought pattern that stems from a complete denial of problems existing can completely destroy ones life.

Just my 2 cents. As my experience in relationship to learning how to understand my problem with 'problems'.

 

[scout86]

If the script in the head is 'there is no problem, there can never be a problem'.

I suspect, but don't know yet, that this is part of the reason he brought this up. I tend to be very careful not to use the word "never". My version of this process is more like "It's only a problem if I decide that it's a problem and I don't want any problems, so I'm going to decide not to see it as a problem."

One of the things I'm finding interesting about this therapeutic relationship is that he pays a lot of attention to language and how it's used, and being accurate. And I, near as I can tell, noticed very early in life that it was useful to pay attention that language and that I could effect how I perceived things by paying attention to how I thought of it. So, when he starts using this approach, I totally get it. But I've used it in some ways that might have allowed me to survive, at the time, but might be counter productive now. (So I need to up date some stuff. :))

But (and I've been thinking about this a good bit) that kind of brings me back to "How do you know something's a problem?" I'm not real aware of anything in particular that's threatening to cause my world to collapse right now. But then, I live alone, in a rural area, don't have any real family relationships or close friends. What's to collapse? My T will say things like "I think you got robbed." with respect to my childhood. I really don't see that. I don't have any perception of "being robbed" of anything. I have no connection to the idea of have missed anything, or needing anything I didn't get. I have no particular feelings about it at all, as long as I don't have to deal with my mother. LOL So, if there's a "problem" there, someplace, how do I recognize it?

One of the things I'm finding most interesting about this question is that it has value from a couple different directions. Both recognizing real problems you don't see and accurately seeing things that might seem, at first glance, to be huge, but maybe aren't. And then there's accurately noticing things that are "problems" so they can be dealt with appropriately.

 

[shimmerz]

I don't know that things need to be 'big' to be problems. I think it goes back to the 'blue not blue' spectrum.

I mean, if I prick my finger on a rusty nail.... well there is the immediate problem (blood dripping on the floor, pain, etc) which are not earth shattering issues. However, there is the potential for tetanus in the future. Is that a problem? Is it an actionable problem? Is there a difference between what you see as a problem for, let's say a horse, who punctured himself in the same way and perhaps you? Would you see it as a problem for the horse and not you? If so, why is that?

If a baby horse is not nurtured properly by its mother, would you see that as an actionable problem? If so, why not yourself if it is a known 'thing' that your parents did not nurture you correctly? See the difference with internal vs external references here? It can teach one a ton about faulty belief systems. What makes you so special that you didn't need nurturing? Is that just because you didn't care? I expect when you were learning to be neglected (before the 'it isn't a problem' mindset got set) that it was totally a problem and that you would have one hell of a time accepting seeing that happening to another being (whether that be horse, child, dog etc).

That loss of connection between what is right for us and what is right for others can be a complete mind screw. So perhaps a problem is best identified by you as an external thing. 'If this was happening to (whatever external reference is helpful), XXXXX - would it be a problem. And then challenging why it isn't a challenge for yourself.

idk just my thoughts.

 

[scout86]

What makes you so special that you didn't need nurturing?

Ok, now THAT I'm going to have to think about! On the one hand, it's kind of an obvious question. On the other hand, I never thought about it, and probably wouldn't have if someone else hadn't brought it up. Thanks @shimmerz ! This is part of why I value you and your friendship!!

 

[scout86]

I just have to add that this just reminded me of a tirade I delivered to my T back during all the chaos that ensued when he moved his practice. "I suppose it's just a question of mind over matter! If I don't mind, it doesn't matter!!!" (And why would I want stuff to matter?)

 

[Ronin]

If I don't mind, it doesn't matter!!!"

:hilarious:

Homie I went by that for so many years.

And I can only say: Where can I demand a refund, this doesn't work as advertised. :D

 

[shimmerz]

why would I want stuff to matter

Yes. Indeed. Lots of things I wish didn't matter. Like the problem I had when I married a complete asshole. Like the problem I now have because I am basically a shut in in a province I have no 'peeps' in for support. Should I see that as a potential problem? Should that matter? Should I do things to avoid possible future problems that may come my way?

You have the freedom to allow things to matter now. You are capable now of dealing in a logical way with things that can be identified as 'mattering'. And problems (and potential problems) matter if they are of the actionable type. Like getting a tetanus shot .... because there may be a 'problem' along the way. Like my getting my ass in gear and working on connections here. Because it might matter very much sometime in the near or far future. And I don't need more problems.

Almost seems to me like 'matter' and 'problem' are tied .... And that I lose the freedom to do things because i have talked myself into the fact that it doesn't 'matter' to me.

Thanks for the posting. This is being helpful for me. Hope for you as well. Hugs my friend. YOU matter to me. ;-)

 

[scout86]

You are capable now of dealing in a logical way with things that can be identified as 'mattering'.

This is kind of opening up a whole landscape I hadn't considered..... :wideeyed: :)

(And YOU matter to ME too! :hug:)

 

[Tinyflame]

Same from me, for you both . :) :hug: :hug:

Thank you @scout86 , it does make sense. Good thread. :tup:

Perhaps what he is getting at here is a possible loop in the head. A conflict of great proportions. If there IS a problem, and one is so focused on denying that ANYTHING can be a problem - then one gets trapped in their own mind. Is it a problem if one does not see that there is a problem? Ever? Even when it is obvious that there is?

Yes.

That loss of connection between what is right for us and what is right for others can be a complete mind screw. So perhaps a problem is best identified by you as an external thing. 'If this was happening to (whatever external reference is helpful), XXXXX - would it be a problem. And then challenging why it isn't a challenge for yourself.... Almost seems to me like 'matter' and 'problem' are tied .... And that I lose the freedom to do things because i have talked myself into the fact that it doesn't 'matter' to me.

Yes also.

 

[Tinyflame]

Like to me, missing a bus needing to get to work- big problem. Lump in breast? Nope. Being 'at a loss', sad, afraid to trust, afraid to hurt, self or others, problem. Not caring, avoiding, no problem.

Your T is smart.

 

[EveHarrington]

"Normal" like can't get out of bed, can't eat, can't engage in expected self care like bathing, brushing teeth, getting dressed.

Idk your level of functioning so this may be meaningless to you.