Relationship Is There A "right" Response?

[BlueOrange]

Do you have your own therapist? Emotional abuse can make it hard to see clearly, and it can be harmful. You've described an abusive relationship, and it seems to me that something needs to change, the sooner the better.

 

[WhisperingUnicorn]

The word that stands out here is "together." I think you are right that together you may find a solution. The trouble is, from what you say that isn't what's going on. He is emphatically pushing away your help, so there is no "together" going on.

I don't know what to offer except that the status quo is not okay. Looking after him means looking after you, and I can't picture a situation where you'd think this was okay if it were anyone else in your shoes.

a person can have flattened affect, anhedonia, whatever you want to call it, and still act with kindness.

This is the part that gets me the most about the convo - him blaming you for the abuse. It's blatant "victim blaming" along the lines of: "I wouldn't have had to punch you in the face if you hadn't made that snide remark" or "If you don't want to get raped, don't wear that short skirt." I know the comparison is faulty in that these situations are so much more extreme, but the psychology behind it is the same. "You deserve to be abused." It's a sick and insidious line of reasoning...

We can't make up for other people's behavior, and it is not your job. It is THEIR job to start seeing the difference. I know, easier said than done, and it takes a lot of clarity to operate from that space...

Do you have your own therapist? Emotional abuse can make it hard to see clearly, and it can be harmful. You've described an abusive relationship, and it seems to me that something needs to change, the sooner the better.

Wow, lots of good feedback here.

My husband and I have been together 10 years, and there are times when I'm tempted to ask questions about whether this or that behavior - even angry outbursts, etc. - are "only" the PTSD talking? Vs. the Good Heart of the man I know and love. And yet I can say examples like the above draw a LOUD distinction for me....

My husband can "get it wrong" and make a disagreement all my fault, and I can "get it wrong" and want to blame him, etc. I think that's normal in ALL relationships to one degree or another. But there is NO way this kind of "horrible thing/rinse repeat" cycle would go on between us. He has a very "grumpy" side, but even his "grumpy" is protective of me, overall. EVEN though his "grumpy" could NOT care less about romantic lovey dovey stuff, he's the mission-minded side of my husband, and my husband's OVERALL mission always includes me, always protects me, always strives to find a way through a difficulty TOGETHER ...

@Sighs .. I cannot imagine surviving in that kind of "horrible thing/rinse repeat" cycle. :( :( I would not be able to maintain any sanity - at BEST your guy sounds like he's gaslighting you .. and I think while we ARE our guys' SUPPORTERS, it's also true we're NOT their "saviors" and we can't make up for other people's past wrongs in their worlds, we can only prove ourselves to be trustworthy, etc. And my husband has actually gone out of his way to make SURE he can't "walk all over me" by confessing things to me that will give me the power to call him out if he's acting out inappropriately so I can still "own my own center" .. The fact that I MUST "own my own center" (self-care, true to my own convictions, etc) is one of the things that gives him great confidence in our relationship. I will stand up to him if I must (and I VERY rarely need to, but when I quote him TO himself in those times, it's an instant diffuser, it's like he "comes back to himself" and we find a path forward, and the reverse is true, too, as I have had my own insecurity issues to work through, too) ...

If you love this guy enough to still be concerned about HIS well-being - and without absolutely compromising your own! - I HIGHLY recommend a 3rd party get involved here. Someone with an understanding of PTSD in a counseling/therapeutic way, AND a good understanding of the law so you know just where your "responsibilities" lie (or where you do NOT have responsibility) concerning his continuing abuse. Verbal abuse can EASILY escalate to physical - and I think you sound like you're very much not safe with him right now - EVEN IF (and perhaps because) he's not "safe" with HIMSELF right now, and the help he needs isn't something he'll be able to receive from you .. In my VERY humble opinion.

I'm SO sorry this is presently such a mess! :(

In the immediate present - the "are you gonna come back and help me with this?" and your "yeah, ok" ?? Not ok, he's not living with any consequences for his bad behavior. I think you might consider letting him know - at a time when things are NOT a full blown argument or episode, or whatnot, "Hon, if you do xyz, I am going to do abc." Ideally, get his agreement that abc is an appropriate consequence. (Like, you leave for a time.) And then when he DOES xyz, you maintain as calm a response as possible, and say again, "Hon, I told you when you do xyz, I am going to do abc. So I am doing abc, now." And then DO it. And do it consistently.

(I don't mean this to sound like dealing with a child - but it really is just a matter of "natural consequences" and staying "firm, fair, and consistent" - like a relational policies and procedures manual. I don't know if that suggestion helps, but it does help my husband and me - we have some very good rules that we BOTH love, because it helps us BOTH to love each other BETTER in the long run....and our number ONE rule is "First, do no harm!")

Wishing you all the best as you wrestle through this. :( Please stay SAFE!

~WU

 

[WhisperingUnicorn]

PS to the above - it's a pretty standard response around this site, I've noticed, that PTSD is NOT an excuse for a person to just straight up be an a**hole, or an abuser. :( YES, a person can suffer with PTSD AND also BE a GOOD person, and BEHAVE well REGARDLESS of how we feel. (just wanted to make that distinction as well)

 

[Friday]

To me that doesn't read that you're holding onto the HorribleThing and want to keep fighting about it after he wants to stop... But more that you're in toddler-mode. Meaning you're not rewarding bad behavior, but are walking off when he crosses the line (if you whine? You don't get what you want. If you throw a fit? You don't get what you want AND go on time out... Except in this case, it's lash out instead of whine), or refusing to budge if he's trying to drive you away on purpose. Which isn't forcing him to self regulate, but is creating the space to. (You done f*cked up boyo). So once he's pulled his head out of his ass however many minutes / hours later? He calls you back out. <<< It's a very sloooooow version of behavior mod, which means it usually works. <chuckling> As a mom though, I'm sure you're A) I. Am. Not. Your. Mother. & B) about to do a chalk outline on the brick so you know where the softest part is to just be like :banghead: brick wall. bang head. brick wall. bang head. I need a martini and a massage. Now. Hell. Yesterday. And dividends today. Pronto.

I can think of about 12,000 ways to escalate the situation ...But whether it's cranky toddlers, flighty horses, or touchy vets? What you're doing is one of the very few methods I've ever found that just *works*. IF I have the patience for it :shifty: I just don't always have the patience for it.

 

[Hojay]

@Friday, I'm unsure I fully understand your post - are you saying sighs is doing the right thing by more or less ignoring the verbal lashing, leaving, and then going back? I'm not sure I follow how that is behavior modification. Wouldn't behavior modification entail leaving and staying away whether or not the sufferer is now "ready" to receive her again to rinse and repeat the cycle?

It's an honest question - how have you had success actually getting the dude to stop verbally lashing out with the only consequence being a "time out?" *which, it seems, he's all too happy to receive given he essentially told her to get out of his face and HORRIBLE THING!*

 

[FireSign8]

Has anyone ever attempted to use humor to get someone to turn their thinking around?
I found this worked for me in similar situations when I was living in homeless shelters & on the streets with vets who had massive issues that seemed to pop up in the oddest moments imaginable. Especially noticed it when we were standing in food lines.:hungry: These guys would start muttering all kinds of similar statements & it was usually directed towards a woman!

I had an old red foam clown nose in my storage locker & I started keeping it in my pocket & I would put it on my face & look at them & say "are you talking to me?"...& things would change except for the one time it did get worse & I left the building. Later found out the guy had a fear of clowns. Oops, everything has some sort of a risk. Thought I'd share that. The guy might need a straight jacket if he keeps it up & blows a gasket at work in front of other people! :banghead: If he fires you at least there's unemployment!

 

[WhisperingUnicorn]

My husband and I recently stumbled onto asking one another "Do you need a snickers?" as if either of us is "hangry" ;) So far that's been one effective "humor" tool in our toolbox :) :inlove:

 

[Friday]

Wouldn't behavior modification entail leaving and staying away whether or not the sufferer is now "ready" to receive her again to rinse and repeat the cycle?

When he wants her there to chew out, she leaves.
When he wants her to go away, not to calm down, but in a fit of pique? She stays.

***

@Sighs has mentioned elsewhere she's a special needs mom of a grown kiddo... And that's a technique you have to use a lot with kids with impulse control issues. Most parents have to do it with toddlers, but special needs kids this goes easily for 5-10 years during different phases, so it becomes almost instinctual, very similar to how a parent with 5 neurotypical kids becomes a past master with tantrums. It's a very very fine line, and always a judgment call, in determining when to be an immovable object, and when to flow like water. (And the days you don't have he patience for it? Oh well. Shit happens. Tomorrow is a new day). Flat out, it just works. But it takes time AND the other person has to be on board aka actually want you to be around when they're rational & not all exploding-ball-of-emotions.

One of the pieces of it? Is -to the very best of your ability- not punishing a return to good behavior. So once they've calmed down? Staying away, not for your own benefit, but to punish the other person? Just creates a no-win mess. It's behavior mod with carrots, instead of sticks. To get what you want? You have to play nice. If you're not playing nice, then if you want me to go, I stay. If you want me to stay, I leave. Once you're playing nice, again? Okay. Hell yes. Right here.

The problem (and benefit), IMO, is that lashing out vets ain't kids. The emotional distance isn't there on my part (like with kids or horses)... You're a grown ass man, mind yourself! <<< Problem. Benefit >>> Is that when you know you do this (as a sufferer) AND you trust your partner is going to push back when you need it & hands off when you don't? It reeeeeally creates the space to start pulling yourself up short & working on your own emotional monitoring and regulation. Aka it becomes a joint effort. And it also means (as the person pushing back, or flowing with) that self-care is a priority that you don't get while parenting. Meaning when you've reached your limit of bullshit you're willing to deal with? You don't have to wait until bedtime (or call a babysitter) to get some peace!

So it's still a balancing act, but it's not the full time job parenting is. Grown ass man. Handle yourself. = reasonable expectation. Shrug. So the dynamic is different, even if the skillset & the judgment calls are the same.

Can bad patterns develop? Absolutely. Especially if it's not a joint effort kind of thing, but a taking advantage of kind of thing. But just from what I've read of Sighs, she doesn't put up with being taken advantage of. Patient? Yes. Tolerant? Nope.

***

ETA... I could be reading things wrong, and this isn't what's going on. It's just my take // what this feels like to me. Old skills in play, but different parameters. As a parent it's your responsibility to teach a child. As a partner? Not your responsibility. Theirs. Can use the same skills, hell I use them all over the place, but the responsibility is nil. Whether or not someone chooses to use that space, or how, is on them. Hence the joint effort. She can create the space IF she wants to, and he can use it to get ahold of himself IF he wants to. But it's not her responsibility. It's a weird dynamic shift to shift gears from adult to child, or child to adult. It's really easy to slip into "I'm responsible to teach this" when you aren't. But that doesn't mean you *can't* use the same skills. Whether it's creating space for a grown ass man, or a skittish horse. The skills themselves are pretty neutral.

 

[WhisperingUnicorn]

Sidenote to incorporate what Friday has said with my above post - "natural consequences" are NOT the same thing as "punishment" .. and can be as simple as defining the "path" .. But I like the distinction on "carrot" incentive, etc. I am not sure, from the above descriptions of the problems if such a "carrot" COULD be implemented at this stage, but it would definitely be the kind of POSITIVE thing to build in for future family "policies and procedures" ..

 

[scout86]

(out of nowhere and usually while I'm trying to help him with something he wants/needs that I couldn't give a rat's arse about)

First, I'm pretty sure from HIS perspective this doesn't REALLY come out of nowhere. It only seems that way to you because, like most people, you can't read minds. There's something going on already that gets him wound up to the point where lashing out feels like the thing to do, to him. (It might be useful to explore that with him, if you can. Because maybe there are ways to defuse things before it gets that far. But HE has to learn to recognize what's happening and deal with it. That's not your job. You can help or hurt the situation, but it's not your job.)

Which part of this is the most important, to you, to change? For me, it would be, "The rules are, you can't hit me or anyone else, and there are a couple of 'Horrible Things' I can't handle hearing, so cut that out." He probably can't turn the anger and frustration off just yet, but maybe you can both agree on acceptable ways to release it.

With my ex, there were 2 things (stupid things) we couldn't do together, Grind feed and move cows. Maybe do anything with cows.... Anyway, with the feed, I always had to direct him as he backed the grinder up, but he couldn't hear me and refused to make any kind of adjustment for that, and he'd get mad and call me names, among other 'horrible things'. My mom called me names. NO ONE gets to call me names NOW! I'd eventually say "Horrible Thing! Do it yourself then!" and go do what ever else I had to do, without so much as a backward glance. If he agreed to calm down, I'd come back and help. If he didn't want to do that, he was on his own. The cow scenario was similar. Except that I normally tried to get that done while he wasn't around because the cows liked me best. He didn't have PTSD, he had other issues. He actually could work with people outside his immediate family just fine. It was the people he believed wouldn't......I don't know, the people he thought were trapped in a relationship with him, where he did this stuff. Anyway, he could turn this on & off. And I called him on that a couple of times. Told him "It would be one thing if you just lost your temper, but you don't lose your temper with the neighbors, so obviously you can turn this on and off. So turn it off! If you think I'm going to live like this for the rest of your life, you're wrong!" And he was. (And a couple of my friends have commented that he obviously didn't know me real well.)

Anyway, does he WANT to work on this? Because the way it is now REALLY isn't fair to you. And, if he doesn't want to work on it, it won't change. You can't do anything, all by yourself to fix it.

 

[Hojay]

Has anyone ever attempted to use humor to get someone to turn their thinking around?

Oh yes! My sufferer and I had the best sense of humor in the beginning - we'd joke under the worst kinds of circumstances. Sadly, however, his outbursts have completely nixed my will to joke. It's not funny when he is disrespecting me personally. And he won't think it's funny either. But in situations that have nothing to do with me, humor is a great way to diffuse the situation.

The problem (and benefit), IMO, is that lashing out vets ain't kids.

Yes, that's the feeling I get too. But also, I think I'm still confused. You are saying for someone to stay when they say go, and go when they say stay? Or am I completely misunderstanding here?

I think I take issue with the whole behavior modification, positive reinforcement angle of this. It leaves the impression that 1. we are their mothers, 2. we can mold them to fit our needs, 3. we are responsible for their behavior

The boundaries we're speaking of here have little to do with changing how they act, and everything to do with getting to a safe place and avoid future hurt. So, in sigh's case, I think going back to him when summoned, not only sends the message that disrespecting her will, in the long run, have no consequences, but she is actually sending the message to HERSELF that he can do whatever he wants, and she'll be there.

I agree with you that one shouldn't stay away to punish. But I think staying away is the logical conclusion and appropriate reaction to being disrespected in that way. I.e. if you talk to me like that, you won't get any help, period. Now, if he approaches her, apologizes, works on specific strategies to avoid such outbursts, THEN we're talking. These are grown men after all. Not to treat them as such is co-dependence.

 

[grimalkin]

Others have said this too, but it definitely takes a willingness on his part to own his crap. If he's not willing to own his crap, and actually figure out what he's doing and why it's not acceptable, and still blames her for his outbursts, he's not ready to be forgiven (if that makes sense).

My sufferer is still in a place where if he said something horrible to me, it was still somehow my fault. "You poked the bear. The bear bit back. I'm sorry, but you still poked the bear, you were acting just like my ex-wife." He does not see his behavior as abusive, but sees mine when trying to stand up for myself, as abusive.

That is a cycle that a sufferer has to figure out and fix, and we definitely can't do it for them. I forgive my sufferer, but he definitely doesn't deserve it. So I'm taking him at his actions (finally) AND his words (which I've always done) and walking away, knowing it's for the better for both of us.